GENESIS: Snoopy's Short & Snappy Review

[paradox3]

Here we go blaming God for our sins and reaping what we sow ---God did not kill the baker he killed himself by the crime he committed -------there are many today who are executed for the crimes they committed all by themselves ----and are reaping what they sowed -----Satan gets into the minds of people and God says cast down all bad thoughts ----bad -thoughts are powerful if they are not cast out and take root in us -our body will move to the thought and BINGO ----we commit what our bad thought told us to do -----

they are called strongholds of the Mind ----Satan is the master of infiltrating bad thoughts in the mind ----your in a Spiritual war -----the baker was in a battle of his mind and he listened to his thought and executed it ---whatever it was ----he made his own fate ----

Please explain why you are so convinced the baker committed a crime.

Are you assuming that he must be guilty because he was thrown in jail?

 

[Waterfall]

My suspicion would be that historically speaking, the story was written retroactively. i.e. the dream and the stockpiling were added to a historical famine that was remembered to some degree. Though maybe even the famine more a tale drawn from common experience rather than a single "real" event.

Should see if scholars have ever backed this one up with Egyptian records. A famine of that scope should have been recorded somewhere by the Egyptian bureaucracy or clergy. One of the problems with the whole Moses story is a lack of Egyptian records. Whereas with the fall of both Israel and Judah centuries later, we have corresponding Assyrian (for Israel) and Babylonian (for Judah) records so we know those fall into the realm of history.

I looked up stockpiling and yes it can cause disruptions in the food chain, such as shortages, price inflation, uneven distribution of food, breaks in the food supply chain and a wastage of food. Apparently in the sub Saharan even today, stockpiling can cause famine within it's fragile food supply.
Perhaps Joseph learned of this from his father who would have been involved in agriculture. Didn't Jacob know how to change the sheep's colours to his advantage also?
It may be myth but most myths hold truths don't they?

 

[Mendalla]

Please explain why you are so convinced the baker committed a crime.

Are you assuming that he must be guilty because he was thrown in jail?

Likely the baker did commit a "crime" in the eyes of the pharoah. Whether it is something we could consider a crime today is a whole matter. As I said earlier, people could be executed almost on a whim in ancient absolute monarchies. Certainly on less grounds or evidence than we expect in a modern society.

 

[paradox3]

Likely the baker did commit a "crime" in the eyes of the pharoah. Whether it is something we could consider a crime today is a whole matter. As I said earlier, people could be executed almost on a whim in ancient absolute monarchies. Certainly on less grounds or evidence than we expect in a modern society.

For sure. But I am asking unsafe to explain why she is so certain Satan led the Cupbearer astray.

 

[paradox3]

Over ten years ago, I served on a jury in a murder trial.
I just can't describe how willing people are to believe a suspect is guilty only because the police have charged the person. This includes the press.

 

[Waterfall]

Over ten years ago, I served on a jury in a murder trial.
I just can't describe how willing people are to believe a suspect is guilty only because the police have charged the person. This includes the press.

Or because they are black or poor with an average lawyer.
Smart phones became a God/human send for some.

 

[unsafe]

So in Genesis 41 ----we see the Cupbearer remembering Joseph and telling Pharaoh that he interpreted their dreams in prison ------and Pharaoh calls for Joseph -----and Joseph is out of prison ---and in the palace ----God knows when the right time for release is ----we don't --If Joseph had of been released before Pharaoh's dreams --there would have been no one to interpret his dreams and Famine would have swallowed all they had -----

Notice in the dreams ---2 sets of 7 are used in both dreams ----and we see that the 7 represents 7 years of prosperity and then 7 years of Famine ----so the 7 years of prosperity in both dreams are swallowed up by the 7 years of Famine ----

This seems important for Pharaoh to get as God reveals it twice ----so I would say it is God's warning to Pharaoh that this will happen soon ----and he need to prepare --for what is coming down the pipe ----

And Pharaoh starts the preparation to keep abundance going when the Famine hits ---and is able to feed the hungry who come crying to him for food during the Famine years ----

The takeaway from this is ----listen to God not man and get prepared for future destruction that God has planned for this world ----God tells us in His word what is coming in the future and how to avoid getting caught in the destruction that He is going to unleash ----

Pharaoh could have not listened to Joseph and the outcome would have been very different -

Who you listen to and who you believe becomes an important thing to consider when God is telling you what will happen in the near future -----

 

[unsafe]

Are you assuming that he must be guilty because he was thrown in jail?

No he is guilty of whatever crime because he was punished for it ------he was put to death ----the cupbearer was restored ---that alone tells you the baker is guilty ------

 

[unsafe]

The scripture actually says ---
40 Some time later, the cupbearer and the baker of the king of Egypt offended their master, the king of Egypt


So the Hebrew word for Offend here is

Strong's Concordance
chata: to miss, go wrong, sin

of the person against whom or towards whom one sins, Genesis 40:1

So for the baker his sin was brought forth and he was punished for it

As far as the cupbearer goes ----how he offended the king was not worthy of punishment as far as the King was concerned and he was restored -----

 

[paradox3]

Okay. So we don't know what crime the baker committed. But we know he had his thoughts influenced by Satan (according to @unsafe).

And we know he was guilty because he was put to death when the Cupbearer was released.

Where does the prophecy of Joseph fit in here? Could God's prediction of the future have been reversed at any point?

Or if God willed all this from the beginning, was Satan actually doing God's bidding?

Why am I being reminded of some of the discussions we have had about Judas Iscariot?

 

[GordW]

Over ten years ago, I served on a jury in a murder trial.
I just can't describe how willing people are to believe a suspect is guilty only because the police have charged the person. This includes the press.

OFF TOPIC ALERT: This is why I have always been uncomfortable with police/prosecutors releasing the names of those wanted for or charged with crimes -- or even "persons of interest". The presumption of innocence tends to disappear pretty quickly

 

[GordW]

No he is guilty of whatever crime because he was punished for it ------he was put to death ----the cupbearer was restored ---that alone tells you the baker is guilty ------

That is a very idealistic point of view when it comes to the justice system.

 

[GordW]

And Pharaoh starts the preparation to keep abundance going when the Famine hits ---and is able to feed the hungry who come crying to him for food during the Famine years ----

ANd coincidentally listening to Joseph allows Pharaoh to consolidate power and wealth.

 

[unsafe]

Or if God willed all this from the beginning, was Satan actually doing God's bidding?

God needs Satan to have some influence over people so the people have free choice --to choose who they want to listen to and obey


Without Satan ----there would be no free choice as we would be following God's Will for our lives and there would have been no need for God to send His Son as there would be no sin in the world ----we all would be living holy lives under God's rule ---there would only be ONE Choice ----

God had a plan from the beginning and Satan was included in His Plan ----God already knew Lucifer would rebel against Him ----as God gave angels free choice as well ----

Could God's prediction of the future have been reversed at any point?

No ---who would reverse it ---God's plan will play out as He has planned it to the end ---no one can reverse it ---

 

[GordW]

God needs Satan to have some influence over people so the people have free choice --to choose who they want to listen to and obey


Without Satan ----there would be no free choice as we would be following God's Will for our lives and there would have been no need for God to send His Son as there would be no sin in the world ----we all would be living holy lives under God's rule ---there would only be ONE Choice ----

God had a plan from the beginning and Satan was included in His Plan ----God already knew Lucifer would rebel against Him ----as God gave angels free choice as well ----


No ---who would reverse it ---God's plan will play out as He has planned it to the end ---no one can reverse it ---

I am not sure you are describing actual free choice if all is really predestined already.

 

[paradox3]

I actually think we are quite capable of screwing up all by ourselves. No Satan needed.

 

[unsafe]

I am not sure you are describing actual free choice if all is really predestined already.

Well we can call it whatever we like ---but without 2 parties there is only one choice -----one to obey --one to put thoughts in our mind ----so free choice is nil without 2 participating ------

And Satan can only do what God has permitted him to do ------Satan has boundaries ---and without Satan Job would not have had to prove his Faith in God -----

Satan goes in God's presents in heaven in Job -----so that tells you that God needed Satan to test Job

Job 1 ABCE​

6 Now there was a day when the sons (the angels) of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the adversary and accuser) also came among them​

 

[paradox3]

Well we can call it whatever we like ---but without 2 parties there is only one choice -----one to obey --one to put thoughts in our mind ----so free choice is nil without 2 participating ------

So are you saying we have no responsibility for our own thoughts?

 

[unsafe]

I actually think we are quite capable of screwing up all by ourselves. No Satan needed.

Well you can think that but before Satan (the Serpent) came in the Garden Adam and Eve never screwed up ---they walked with God --their thoughts were pure they were upright and sinless ----so if Adam and Eve had not screwed up and remained Godly in their thoughts and actions and had children we would have no sinful thoughts to screw ups ----we would be perfect in our thoughts ---words and deeds ---as God made us in His image -----but Satan appeared as a serpent and we know the rest of the story ----

 

[Mendalla]

Or, you now, Satan as The Tempter is really a literary metaphor for the dark side of human desires (greed, uncontrolled lust, etc.) and when we talk about the war between God and Satan, it is really about our morality and conscience vs. those more harmful desires.