GENESIS: Snoopy's Short & Snappy Review
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Is this the same God that says thou shalt not kill?
For the Pharaoh, possibly not, but for Joseph? Should Joseph have spoke up?
jimkenney12
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The original crime was the attempted poisoning of the Pharoah. The truth does not matter. We do not have solid evidence this even happened. What matters is the story as is.
paradox3
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Where do you get the attempted poisoning of Pharoah? I don't see it in the version of the bible I am using (NET)
The Talmud sometimes speculates in a very convincing way. Is this your source, perhaps?
jimkenney12
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It was probably a children's book of Bible stories.
It was probably a powerful position to be in, to be known as a translator of dreams.....I mean I'm sure we could come up with different translations than what Joseph came up with for those dreams. Any one wanting to
find favour in the eyes of Pharaoh or cause him to make unfavourable choices could easily influence important outcomes, "if God was talking to him."
Could Pharaoh have heard of these translations, and carried them out. Could Joseph have caused a death by doing this?
Of course, it could be God actually did talk to him.
find favour in the eyes of Pharaoh or cause him to make unfavourable choices could easily influence important outcomes, "if God was talking to him."
Could Pharaoh have heard of these translations, and carried them out. Could Joseph have caused a death by doing this?
Of course, it could be God actually did talk to him.
paradox3
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Hi again. Here is Genesis 41.
Snoopy's Snappy Review:
Hooray for the Cupbearer!
www.biblegateway.com
Two years pass and the Pharoah has a couple of bewildering dreams. The priests and the wise men don't know what to say about them.
The Cupbearer ponders his past mistakes and decides to speak up. He tells Pharoah about meeting Joseph in prison and how he could interpret dreams. Joseph is summoned before Pharoah.
Joseph insists it is God speaking through him but he predicts 7 years of abundance followed by 7 years of famine. He advises the appointment of a wise overseer who will ensure grain is put aside for the famine.
Joseph is put in charge. He receives fine clothes, a gold chain and the Pharoah's signet ring. He is given a wife who bears him two sons in the good years.
So much grain is stored it can't even be measured. There is plenty for the Egyptians and the people of surrounding nations when the famine arrives.
Snoopy's Snappy Review:
Hooray for the Cupbearer!
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 41 - New English Translation
Joseph’s Rise to Power - At the end of two full years Pharaoh had a dream. As he was standing by the Nile, seven fine-looking, fat cows were coming up out of the Nile, and they grazed in the reeds. Then seven bad-looking, thin cows were coming up after them from the Nile, and they stood beside...
Two years pass and the Pharoah has a couple of bewildering dreams. The priests and the wise men don't know what to say about them.
The Cupbearer ponders his past mistakes and decides to speak up. He tells Pharoah about meeting Joseph in prison and how he could interpret dreams. Joseph is summoned before Pharoah.
Joseph insists it is God speaking through him but he predicts 7 years of abundance followed by 7 years of famine. He advises the appointment of a wise overseer who will ensure grain is put aside for the famine.
Joseph is put in charge. He receives fine clothes, a gold chain and the Pharoah's signet ring. He is given a wife who bears him two sons in the good years.
So much grain is stored it can't even be measured. There is plenty for the Egyptians and the people of surrounding nations when the famine arrives.
paradox3
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Yesterday I said the Royal Baker and the Cupbearer reminded me of fairy tale characters or Alice in Wonderland. Today's text reads like a fable, don't you think? 
In Alice's story the Queen of Hearts often yells out, "Off with their heads "
In Genesis 40 it was off with the baker's head. The Cupbearer forgets his promise to Joseph and neglects to advocate for him with Pharoah. But in today's story he recalls his mistakes and explains what Joseph can offer.
The moral of this fable might be that errors and oversights of the past can be rectified.
In Alice's story the Queen of Hearts often yells out, "Off with their heads "
In Genesis 40 it was off with the baker's head. The Cupbearer forgets his promise to Joseph and neglects to advocate for him with Pharoah. But in today's story he recalls his mistakes and explains what Joseph can offer.
The moral of this fable might be that errors and oversights of the past can be rectified.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Except God had nothing to do with it. This was pharonic Egypt and like most absolute monarchies, death was a pretty common punishment to face if you got on the wrong side of the pharoah. The baker's death was definitely sad and likely unmerited, but there's a reason the West moved away from absolute monarchies to constitutional ones or republics.
paradox3
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God wasn't exactly hands off in the story. Joseph prophesied that the baker would be beheaded and the Cupbearer would be reinstated. But before hearing the Pharoah's dream, Joseph made it clear that interpretation belongs to God. (Genesis 40: 8)
Now, was God foretelling the future for Joseph's benefit or was God communicating God's wishes? We don't know.
But we have seen God killing people off in other stories. Er and Onan were dispatched pretty quickly (Genesis 38)
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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I don't think God gets the blame for the baker, though. The dream just told Joseph what was going to happen to him. Pharoah still gets the blame for the killing, doesn't he?
I mean, if I have a weird dream that is interpreted to be God warning me of a coming stock market crash, God doesn't get the blame for the crash.
I mean, if I have a weird dream that is interpreted to be God warning me of a coming stock market crash, God doesn't get the blame for the crash.
paradox3
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God gets the credit for the seven years of abundance and the blame for the seven years of famine in today's story.
Then Joseph said to Pharoah, "Both dreams of Pharoah have the same meaning. God has revealed to Pharoah what he is about to do." (Genesis 41: 25)
The dream was repeated to Pharoah because the matter has been decreed by God and God will make it happen soon. (Genesis 41: 32)
Then Joseph said to Pharoah, "Both dreams of Pharoah have the same meaning. God has revealed to Pharoah what he is about to do." (Genesis 41: 25)
The dream was repeated to Pharoah because the matter has been decreed by God and God will make it happen soon. (Genesis 41: 32)
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Yep, got to be one of the most famous dreams in Western history, eh. Of course, the "God" involved would have been referred to as "Amen-Re" by Pharoah and "Yahweh" by Joseph, or something like that. And crediting good and bad times to divine favour/disfavour was pretty normal in all religions of that era.
paradox3
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There's an interesting thought.
But I think we are meant to understand that God has orchestrated the whole shebang. I don't believe it, of course, but I think this is what the mythology is teaching us.
Mendalla
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My suspicion would be that historically speaking, the story was written retroactively. i.e. the dream and the stockpiling were added to a historical famine that was remembered to some degree. Though maybe even the famine more a tale drawn from common experience rather than a single "real" event.
Should see if scholars have ever backed this one up with Egyptian records. A famine of that scope should have been recorded somewhere by the Egyptian bureaucracy or clergy. One of the problems with the whole Moses story is a lack of Egyptian records. Whereas with the fall of both Israel and Judah centuries later, we have corresponding Assyrian (for Israel) and Babylonian (for Judah) records so we know those fall into the realm of history.
unsafe
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Here we go blaming God for our sins and reaping what we sow ---God did not kill the baker he killed himself by the crime he committed -------there are many today who are executed for the crimes they committed all by themselves ----and are reaping what they sowed -----Satan gets into the minds of people and God says cast down all bad thoughts ----bad -thoughts are powerful if they are not cast out and take root in us -our body will move to the thought and BINGO ----we commit what our bad thought told us to do -----
they are called strongholds of the Mind ----Satan is the master of infiltrating bad thoughts in the mind ----your in a Spiritual war -----the baker was in a battle of his mind and he listened to his thought and executed it ---whatever it was ----he made his own fate ----
I suppose God could still be orchestrating a way for Joseph to be released from prison and become influential. But I do wonder why Joseph marries a woman that worships another God.
No he did not kill himself...he was ordered to be killed.
There have been others that have done worse and found favour with God.