GENESIS: Snoopy's Short & Snappy Review

[unsafe]

But I still struggle with its portrayed of God as a rather heartless tester of humankind.

How was He heartless in this story ----God already knew Abraham would obey His command to sacrifice Isaac and already had in place Abraham's way out planned before hand -----and Abraham already knew God would bring therm both back ------

God is testing every one of us every day here on this earth as we speak ------where does your faith lie ----with the god of this world or the God of Abraham --Isaac and Jacob -----

God already knows where your heart lies -----it is not a test for God ---it is a test for us to see where our heart is and where our belief stands ----

Jesus said your either with me or against me ---you can't be both ------

We are the Heartless ones ----Not God -----we want our cake and eat it to -----we just want God to be there for us at our beck and call -----when we do nothing to show our love for Him that is heartless --in my view

 

[Waterfall]

Not really. Some gnostics were henotheists but they are not synonyms. Gnosticism refers to knowledge about God, not the nature of God. Some Hindu schools lean that way, too, for instance. Many gods but with one god who is seen as above all.

(Come to think of it, the religion in one of my fantasy worlds is basically henotheistic. I just didn't think of it at the time. There's a supreme deity, an Earth goddess, and then the other deities are her children and subservient to her)

Now I thought gnostics think that the Demiurge was responsible for evil and not the supreme God but subordinate to him?

 

[GordW]

At risk of controversy, we haven't stopped human sacrifice, just given it more acceptable forms. Executing heretics and witches. Shipping people off to die in battle in "God's name". We kill in God's name and on God's behalf right down to today, we just don't frame it in terms of sacrifice anymore.

One year when working with this passage I wrote this prayer. The basis is that I was wondering how we still might sacrifice children:

From June 26, 2005 -- Proper 8, 6th AfterPentecost

This comes from the archives since we aren't dealing with the Genesis story this year. A Confession Prayer based on the sacrifice of Isaac: ...

worshipofferings.blogspot.com

 

[GordW]

I remember God said he hated sacrifice in the OT.
And Jesus reiterates this in Mathew 9:13.
GOD prefers mercy and so does Jesus.

THe prophetic passages about God hating sacrifices are about a loss of priority more than the ritual itself. I do not read them as calling for an end to he ritual, just a reminder that there is more to being faithful than just doing the rites.

 

[Redbaron]

How was He heartless in this story ----God already knew Abraham would obey His command to sacrifice Isaac and already had in place Abraham's way out planned before hand -----and Abraham already knew God would bring them both back.

If God already knew the outcome beforehand, then this 'test' is a sham. It was unnecessary. Why go though the charade, if the result is already known?

 

[Mendalla]

THe prophetic passages about God hating sacrifices are about a loss of priority more than the ritual itself. I do not read them as calling for an end to he ritual, just a reminder that there is more to being faithful than just doing the rites.

Something that I think people still lose sight of. You've got a segment of people who see going to church and being a "church person" as the focus of being Christian whereas that should be a part of it. Important, sure, but as a support for faith rather than being the sum total of it.

 

[paradox3]

Here's a curious thing about Genesis. This covenant God has with Abraham and his descendants keeps getting mentioned over and over again. Why is that?

Today isn't even the first time we have heard about numbers as great as the stars in the sky.

 

[Mendalla]

Here's a curious thing about Genesis. This covenant God has with Abraham and his descendants keeps getting mentioned over and over again. Why is that?

Today isn't even the first time we have heard about numbers as great as the stars in the sky.

It's an origin story to some degree. That is, it was written looking back from the context of the writers to tell the tale of where the Hebrew people originated. So I think it is natural that they talk about Abraham's descendents, which would include the tellers and writers of the story. And, really, that applies to all of Genesis when it comes right down it. It has a bit of a prequel feel to it at this point, a "how did we get here" feel, rather than the start of a novel. Lots of foreshadowing of things that have actually already happened by the time of writing.

 

[Waterfall]

THe prophetic passages about God hating sacrifices are about a loss of priority more than the ritual itself. I do not read them as calling for an end to he ritual, just a reminder that there is more to being faithful than just doing the rites.

In which passage or passages do you see that?

 

[GordW]

Here's a curious thing about Genesis. This covenant God has with Abraham and his descendants keeps getting mentioned over and over again. Why is that?

Today isn't even the first time we have heard about numbers as great as the stars in the sky.

I have often thought that Abraham and Sarah need constant reminders of the promise because they have trouble believing and trusting that it will actually happen (and really given how long it takes for even one descendant to arrive who can blame them for doubting).

 

[Waterfall]

Could you imagine a minister or priest today killing a lamb on the alter?

 

[GordW]

In which passage or passages do you see that?

In context all of them. The prophets never call for an end to the sacrifices.

 

[paradox3]

Could you imagine a minister or priest today killing a lamb on the alter?

Um.... We kind of do it symbolically. Sort of. Maybe.

 

[paradox3]

In context all of them. The prophets never call for an end to the sacrifices.

Am I correct in assuming that sacrifices don't end until the destruction of the second temple?

We had a Jewish guest speaker at church a few weeks ago. She told us that prayer replaced animal sacrifice historically.

 

[Mendalla]

Could you imagine a minister or priest today killing a lamb on the alter?

Of course not. But animal sacrifice was very much the norm in most European and Middle Eastern religions in Abraham's time and through to Constantine. Probably even well after that in some areas (e.g. the "barbarians", e.g. the Norse and some Germanic tribes, weren't completely Christianized until the 10th or 11th century CE). Only the decline of temple religions like classical paganism and temple Judaism really brought an end to it.

 

[Waterfall]

In context all of them. The prophets never call for an end to the sacrifices.

I believe the projects were talking about human sacrifice...when the pagans sacrificed their first born?

 

[Mendalla]

I believe the projects were talking about human sacrifice...when the pagans sacrificed their first born?

What pagans ever did that? None that I know of. Human sacrifice wasn't common in most cultures of the region. It happened, but was not anything so routine, more of a thing that happened for special occasions or dire emergencies. The Romans hated it with a passion and was one of the charges they used when they went after the Druids and some other cultural groups.

 

[Waterfall]

Am I correct in assuming that sacrifices don't end until the destruction of the second temple?

We had a Jewish guest speaker at church a few weeks ago. She told us that prayer replaced animal sacrifice historically.

I agree animal sacrifice continued but within the passage you opened with it is Issac, a human.
Then the destruction of the temple took it further I suppose.
On an intellectual level does it make sense to us today that sacrificing humans or animals would appease God? I think that over time most societies today would be appalled by the strangeness of it all, much like God centuries ago.

 

[paradox3]

One of the oddities in today's passage is the human sacrifice element.

Animal sacrifice was the norm. It shows up very early in the narrative with the Cain and Abel story.

 

[Mendalla]

On an intellectual level does it make sense to us today that sacrificing humans or animals would appease God? I think that over time most societies today would be appalled by the strangeness of it all, much like God centuries ago.

Actually, once you understand how the notion of "god" was understood, sacrifices makes perfect sense. Deities were natural forces that could be beneficent or destructive. Sacrifices of various forms were how you made sure they were the former when dealing with you. For instance, Greeks made sacrifices to Poseidon before sea journeys. Christianity and to some degree post-second temple Judaism redefined how humans relate to their deity, rendering sacrifices unnecessary. Only societies that have made that shift would find sacrifices at all strange. And there are religions active in the modern world (e.g. some Hindu sects, Islam at certain times and events) that do still practice animal sacrifice. So I don't think your premise holds.

There is almost no mainstream practice of literal human sacrifice in any modern religion that I know of. However, the idea that animal sacrifice is okay but human sacrifice isn't can be seen as part of our penchant for separating ourselves from nature and that's not automatically a good thing. Really, if we recognize ourselves as part of a greater whole that is nature (as the UU seventh principle does), any killing for any purpose other than as part of the food web should be seen negatively.