Luke 6: A Verse (or Two) at a Time

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Waterfall said:
I don't see the nations that you mention producing much fruit for the kingdom in his time or even now for that matter, do you?
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Huh? The Romans and Greeks became major centers of the faith. Absent the Roman Empire and its building and securing of trade and communication networks, Christianity could not have spread nearly as quickly as it did. Rome remains the center of the largest single branch of Christianity while Greece hosts its own denomination of the Orthodox branch. So if by "the Kingdom" we mean Christianity, I'd say they did pretty dang well. But maybe that's not what you're thinking of.

The Syro-Phoenician region ended up as mostly Islamic in the end but that comes a few hundred years after Jesus and I don't think he saw that one coming.
 
Matthew adds this saying to the same cluster of sayings:
"With the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you dish out will be the measure you get back (Matthew 7:2)."
The karmic principle applies to the afterlife (Hell) and teaches that one's predicament after death will be based on the principle like attracts like; that is, people with gravitate to others who share the same core desires--thieves with thieves, power trippers with power trippers, etc. Thus, Hell becomes an educational tool that answers the question, "What would your life be like if you were confined to a realm of souls just like you, in which communication was telepathic and thoughts could not be hidden?

That was precisely the insight of famed Swedish mystic Emanuel Swedenborg who spent the last 20 years of his life exploring the spirit realm (heavens, hells, etc.) and learned that one's postmortem fate was based on the principle light attracts like. Swedenborg was famous for his verifications of this ability by reporting accurate information from the deceased about their earthly lives that was later verified. The Stanford Research Institute rated Swedenborg one of the 3 greatest geniuses of all time.
 
Mystic said:
"Therefore, I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you (jews) and given to a people who produces the fruit of the kingdom (Matthew 21:43)." R=This marks the shift to Gentiles like the Syrio-Phoencians, Romans, and Greeks.
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Some commentators think Jesus was talking about the Jews as a nation. Others think He meant the Jewish leadership specifically.

Matthew 21 v.45:
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they realized he was speaking about them.

A separate thread for the Parable of the Tenants would be a good idea if anyone is interested in starting it. The parable appears in all three synoptics.
 
Mendalla said:
Huh? The Romans and Greeks became major centers of the faith. Absent the Roman Empire and its building and securing of trade and communication networks, Christianity could not have spread nearly as quickly as it did. Rome remains the center of the largest single branch of Christianity while Greece hosts its own denomination of the Orthodox branch. So if by "the Kingdom" we mean Christianity, I'd say they did pretty dang well. But maybe that's not what you're thinking of.

The Syro-Phoenician region ended up as mostly Islamic in the end but that comes a few hundred years after Jesus and I don't think he saw that one coming.
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I will not pursue this further, other than to say, I personally doubt Jesus envisioned those churches you mentioned....but I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
 
paradox3 said:
Some commentators think Jesus was talking about the Jews as a nation. Others think He meant the Jewish leadership specifically.
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Matthew 21 Gives you who Jesus was talking to ----

The Authority of Jesus Questioned​

23 Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him.

So it is to them that Jesus says -----

43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit --

The Leadership -----Pharisees and all Chief Priest were suppose to be looking after the sheep --guiding them into obedience and righteousness and trusting in God ---producing God's good fruit and instead they had failed to do that --and then rejected God's Son ----so the Kingdom of God will not be for them ----it will be for those who produce good fruit -----
 
Mendalla said:
Yeah, I think Jesus fight was with the leaders and their teachings, not Jews as a group.
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Definitely. But you can find interpretations of this parable (or its parallels in Mark & Luke) which suggest Jesus expected the Christian church to replace God's covenant with Israel.

That was the prevalent view for a long time in Christian circles.
 
The Roman Catholic Church didn't begin to move away from supersessionism until the 1960's during its Second Vatican Council. I believe further clarification was issued in the 1980's.
 
paradox3 said:
The Roman Catholic Church didn't begin to move away from supersessionism until the 1960's during its Second Vatican Council. I believe further clarification was issued in the 1980's.
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And some Protestants, sadly, still have not.

(And I will remind people that supersecessionism is an anti-Semitic doctrine and defending or advocating for it would violate our Values)
 
unsafe said:
But that goes against what the passage says as it identifies who the party is ----so I don't know how people can say ----it applies to all Jews ----just saying
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People who want to hate will misrepresent things to support that hatred and interpret things in terms of that hatred. So I know how, even if it makes no sense whatsoever to those of us who don't believe them.
 
Jesus' greatest success was in the Decapolis region, and so, in the 2nd half of His ministry His mission seems primarily devoted to the Greeks. For me this raises 2 intriguing questions:
(1) In the 60s a prophetic oracle in the Jerusalem church to Pella. Pella is a Decapolis city 2 miles east of the Jordan and 17 miles south of the Sea of Galilee.
No doubt, they relocated there because of the strong Christian base established there by Jesus' ministry. So it archaeologists could find the exact spot where these Jewish Christian transients stayed, they might find new lost Gospels.

(2) Saul's pre-Christion mission to go to Damascus in Syria to arrest members of the Christian community there suggests that Jesus had already established a community of believers there. How far morth and east from Israel did Jesus travel then? Damascus is 185 miles north of Jerusalem.
 
Mystic said:
(2) Saul's pre-Christion mission to go to Damascus in Syria to arrest members of the Christian community there suggests that Jesus had already established a community of believers there. How far morth and east from Israel did Jesus travel then? Damascus is 185 miles north of Jerusalem.
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One wonders if he was already sending "missionaries" out or something. Or if someone from there heard him and was converted and then took it back. It's certainly not impossible for Jesus himself to have gone there given that Saul/Paul did it but seems odd that it was not recorded, at least in the canonical sources. Can't speak to non-canonical ones since I haven't really looked at or read about that many of them.
 
Mendalla said:
One wonders if he was already sending "missionaries" out or something. Or if someone from there heard him and was converted and then took it back. It's certainly not impossible for Jesus himself to have gone there given that Saul/Paul did it but seems odd that it was not recorded, at least in the canonical sources. Can't speak to non-canonical ones since I haven't really looked at or read about that many of them.
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Not odd when you consider that Luke's primary focus is on PauI and the westward spread of Christianity. so we hear almost nothing about the spread of the faith north, east, and south to Egypt and North Africa, though we know there were successful first-century missions to these places. The Gospel of Thomas was written at Edessa in eastern Syria. It gets its name from traditions that Thomas evangelized Edessa, though Thomas didn't actually write the Gospel that bears his name.
 
The influence of the Greeks has always confounded me. I probably need a history course or two.
 
If Pentecost was a major evangelism event, I can imagine people who were converted took their new faith back to their home communities
 
jimkenney12 said:
If Pentecost was a major evangelism event, I can imagine people who were converted took their new faith back to their home communities
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I wonder if Jesus ever foresaw this? I think he was all about promoting an apocalyptic version of Judaism. I am not even certain he was the Jewish reformer I once thought.

He promoted an ethical framework as well as we are seeing.here in the Sermon on the Mount. It is quite possible He only intended this for the interim until the world ended.
 
paradox3 said:
I wonder if Jesus ever foresaw this? I think he was all about promoting an apocalyptic version of Judaism. I am not even certain he was the Jewish reformer I once thought.
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Jesus prophesies the Pentecost outpouring of the Spirit in Mark 9:1:
There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power."
What does Jesus prophecy for Pentecost? "You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you (Acts 1:8).
What's the context of this promise? Jesus "speaking about the kingdom of God (1;3)."
Pentecost is the birthday of the church qage, not an event signaling the end of the world.
 
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Good morning everyone. Here is Luke 6: 39-40
www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 6:39-40 - New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition

He also told them a parable: “Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit? A disciple is not above the teacher, but every disciple who is fully qualified will be like the teacher.
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com

"The blind leading the blind" is a common idiom. I have used it many times myself but it seems to be falling out of favour these days. It is being seen as ableist in some circles.

"The hopeless leading the clueless" is a suggested alternative but I am not sure it is any better. If anything, it seems like a more judgmental expression.

But what did Jesus mean by this parable? Was He saying we all need spiritual leadership?

I wonder if He was breaking new ground when He said the disciple could become like the teacher. The Pharisees set themselves above the people & I can't imagine them saying anything of the kind.

Jesus does not specify how a disciple can become fully qualified. But I suppose that is the whole point of the Sermon on the Plain.

How do you respond to these two verses? I find myself thinking of those who have been important spiritual teachers in my life.
 
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