Luke 6: A Verse (or Two) at a Time

[jimkenney12]

The Kingdom of God is a state of being. We can be in it for a while which csn be seconds to years. I suspect many of the people in communities with many members over a hundred years old spend considerable time there. To me it is living in intense connection with self, "God", others, and the world.

 

[Mendalla]

Some people have come to the conclusion Jesus must have been a communist.

Communist in the modern sense? Hardly. With no capitalist industrial revolution to react against, anything resembling modern Communism/Marxism is pretty much meaningless.

But communist in the sense of focusing on the good of the community rather than the individual? Indubitably. But I think communalism (or something) is probably a better term for that, just to avoid conflation with dear old Karl.

Not to derail my own thread, but is the Kingdom of God a utopian ideal?

Depends on what you believe. If you actually believe that Jesus is going to return and bring it about, then it is not utopian, at least for you. If you think it is just a vision presented to guide us in our relations and actions, then yes, it is utopian. And from a secular outside view, it is utopian for sure.

 

[paradox3]

But communist in the sense of focusing on the good of the community rather than the individual? Indubitably. But I think communalism (or something) is probably a better term for that, just to avoid conflation with dear old Karl.

Yes I think you have nailed it. The communes of the Hippie era come to mind. Remember them?

 

[BetteTheRed]

My late Aging Hippie spent a few summers at "Free Camps" around Jasper. They lived in his memory forever, treasured as his utopian times.

 

[Mystic]

Not to derail my own thread, but is the Kingdom of God a utopian ideal?

Remember, Jesus and the 12 were homeless wanderers dependent on the kindness and generosity of others. Similarly, the first church:
"No one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common (Acts 4:32)."

It could be that the seeds of the Kingdom are here now.

Not "could be." In both Hebrew and Greek the word translated "kingdom" means both "reign and realm. Jesus' parables (e. g. in Mark 4) stress the presence of the kingdom of God and its gradual growth in the present. Jesus repudiates the Pharisaic stress on a future apocalyptic kingdom of God preceded by visible signs:

"The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed. Nor will people say, "Look, here it is!" or "There it is!" For the kingdom of God (= "realm") is [already in our midst (Luke 17:21)."

Jesus implies that the righteous scribe need only tune in to the nearby realm of God that is already present:
"When Jesus saw that he [the scribe] answered wisely, He said to him. "You are not far from the kingdom of God (Mark 12:34).""

To experience the "kingdom" as "the reign of God," one must experience the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit:
"If it is by the Holy Spirit that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has [already] come to you (Matthew 12: 28)."

Paul's power spirituality understands Jesus' point very well:
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not your [God-]talk but your power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."
"My speech and my words were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND POWER, that your faith might not rest on the wisdom of words, but on the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

Why is modern Pentecostalism the fastest growing religious movement in the world? Largely because they get Jesus' and Paul's teaching about experiencing "the kingdom (= realm) of God." By contrast, why are progressive churches experiencing steep decline? Because their spirituality is impotent and impoverished by the standards of Jesus and Paul.

 

[paradox3]

My late Aging Hippie spent a few summers at "Free Camps" around Jasper. They lived in his memory forever, treasured as his utopian times.

The only thing I could find is a Jasper Free Camp FB page.

Kibbutzim in Israel were started as a utopian ideal. They have undergone significant change over the generations but still exist.

 

[Mystic]

My late Aging Hippie spent a few summers at "Free Camps" around Jasper. They lived in his memory forever, treasured as his utopian times.

At age 22 I spent a summer interval during my studies at Princeton Seminary at the South Rim at the Grand Canyon, where I conducted the Sunday services at the little outdoor amphitheater by the canyon's edge. During the week I worked in the tourist center and rented rooms and spaces in the mining camp across from the tourist center. The problem was that tourists could stay for free at the large camp ground down the road. So when they asked me if there were other alternatives to my dump, it was very effective for me to say, "Nope, unless you want to stay with the Hippies in the free camp ground down the road!" That line always persuaded them to pay to stay in my dump of a camp ground!

 

[paradox3]

In high school (late 60's to early 70's) we had a supply teacher who talked about living in a commune. We were all fascinated by her stories. She was one of the most passionate teachers of English I ever encountered.

I once had a rev who lived in a commune at some point (80's or earlier). She didn't talk about it much but she was also a passionate individual.

 

[paradox3]

I have just been thinking of very closed communities such as ultra Orthodox Jews and the Amish. They are based on living highly religious and separated lives. Convents and monasteries have been much the same traditionally.

These community members don't seem to live in utopian settings and can still encounter toxicity and power abuses. There are mixed reports of these experiences, that's for sure.

Loving our enemies, turning the other cheek and extreme generosity can be held up as ideals perhaps. The standard of reasonableness needs to apply, no?

 

[Mystic]

I have just been thinking of very closed communities such as ultra Orthodox Jews and the Amish. They are based on living highly religious and separated lives. Convents and monasteries have been much the same traditionally.

Remember, the word "Pharisee" in Hebrew ("perushim") meams "separate ones," i e. a separatist group for a life of holiness., and after the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 AD, the rabbis who reconstructed the Jewish faith criticized the Pharisees for being too radically conservative.

 

[jimkenney12]

Remember, Jesus and the 12 were homeless wanderers dependent on the kindness and generosity of others. Similarly, the first church:
"No one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common (Acts 4:32)."

Not "could be." In both Hebrew and Greek the word translated "kingdom" means both "reign and realm. Jesus' parables (e. g. in Mark 4) stress the presence of the kingdom of God and its gradual growth in the present. Jesus repudiates the Pharisaic stress on a future apocalyptic kingdom of God preceded by visible signs:

"The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed. Nor will people say, "Look, here it is!" or "There it is!" For the kingdom of God (= "realm") is [already in our midst (Luke 17:21)."

Jesus implies that the righteous scribe need only tune in to the nearby realm of God that is already present:
"When Jesus saw that he [the scribe] answered wisely, He said to him. "You are not far from the kingdom of God (Mark 12:34).""

To experience the "kingdom" as "the reign of God," one must experience the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit:
"If it is by the Holy Spirit that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has [already] come to you (Matthew 12: 28)."

Paul's power spirituality understands Jesus' point very well:
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not your [God-]talk but your power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."
"My speech and my words were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND POWER, that your faith might not rest on the wisdom of words, but on the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

Why is modern Pentecostalism the fastest growing religious movement in the world? Largely because they get Jesus' and Paul's teaching about experiencing "the kingdom (= realm) of God." By contrast, why are progressive churches experiencing steep decline? Because their spirituality is impotent and impoverished by the standards of Jesus and Paul.

An excellent post until the last paragraph. Why do you persist in attacking progressive churches and making generalizations about them when many are actually thriving?

 

[paradox3]

Remember, the word "Pharisee" in Hebrew ("perushim") meams "separate ones," i e. a separatist group for a life of holiness., and after the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 AD, the rabbis who reconstructed the Jewish faith criticized the Pharisees for being too radically conservative.

Yes it's an interesting history.

 

[paradox3]

If anyone wishes to discuss progressive Christianity and/ or compare its impact to Pentecostal churches, please start a thread for this purpose

 

[jimkenney12]

I believe this verse joins the others in being directed at the community of followers for life in the community. It works for communities with strong connections and it can work for generations. Many years ago I either read or talk to someone about a surprising conversation. The person had complimented someone about an accessory or article of clothing another person had, possibly saying something "I wish I had one like it.". The person immediately gave it to them because that was required by their culture. Some North American Indigenous cultures have similar customs. The belief systems regarding property vary greatly between cultures. Our culture is deeply rooted in personal ownership of property so it is hard for us to get this saying. For cultures rooted in day to day survival ownership of property is close to sn abstract concept.

 

[Mystic]

An excellent post until the last paragraph. Why do you persist in attacking progressive churches and making generalizations about them when many are actually thriving?

(1) Because it is the most relevant response that can be made in response to paradox's question about the presence of the kingdom of God.
(2) Because UCCan is the progressive denomination in most rapid decline, whereas Pentecostalism is the fastest growing movement in the world. Why?
Because for all their faults, Pentecostalism grasps the "power" dynamics of the presence of the kingdom as taught by Jesus and Paul and progressives don't.
So the few "thriving" progressive churches are the exception that proves the rule and, in any case, don't even remotely measure up the supernatural "power" kingdom standard of Jesus and Paul, as articulated in the last post.

 

[paradox3]

@jimkenney12 The question becomes then, how applicable are these ideas to our life and culture today?

 

[Mendalla]

(1) Because it is the most relevant response that can be made in response to paradox's question about the presence of the kingdom of God.
(2) Because UCCan is the progressive denomination in most rapid decline, whereas Pentecostalism is the fastest growing movement in the world. Why?
Because for all their faults, Pentecostalism grasps the "power" dynamics of the presence of the kingdom as taught by Jesus and Paul and progressives don't.
So the few "thriving" progressive churches are the exception that proves the rule and, in any case, don't even remotely measure up the supernatural "power" kingdom standard of Jesus and Paul, as articulated in the last post.

You were asked to take this to its own thread. Do so. I will even move this post for you.

 

[paradox3]

(1) Because it is the most relevant response that can be made in response to paradox's question about the presence of the kingdom of God.
(2) Because UCCan is the progressive denomination in most rapid decline, whereas Pentecostalism is the fastest growing movement in the world. Why?
Because for all their faults, Pentecostalism grasps the "power" dynamics of the presence of the kingdom as taught by Jesus and Paul and progressives don't.
So the few "thriving" progressive churches are the exception that proves the rule and, in any case, don't even remotely measure up the supernatural "power" kingdom standard of Jesus and Paul, as articulated in the last post.

Once again, please take this crique of progressive churches elsewhere.

 

[paradox3]

Once again, please take this crique of progressive churches elsewhere.

Sorry. I didn't see the purple text before posting this.

 

[paradox3]

You were asked to take this to its own thread. Do so. I will even move this post for you.

Please leave it in place. The conversation won't make sense otherwise.