Making All Things New: (Revelation 21: 1-8)

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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
I feel like if it wasn’t placed at the end of the bible the world might be a different place and already on a different trajectory to be honest. It was some men who decided it had to be placed at the end and plenty of unholy wars have ensued because of that.
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And its presence has not been without controversy. As late a figure as Martin Luther (15th-16th century) questioned its inclusion and that was long after the canon had been accepted.

Kimmio Laughterlove said:
We’re supposed to be a light in a dark world not making it darker.
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Thing is, taken as a whole, Revelation is not really about making the world darker. It goes some dark places to be sure, but that's not the end game. The ultimate end in Revelation is the coming of God's Kingdom, which is the ultimate in light. But the world must go through darkness to get that light due to the need to overcome the powers of sin and darkness. At least that's how I have kind of read it, not as literal predictions of events but as a message about the need to stay faithful through the world's darkness and tribulations (note the lack of a capital, I am talking "tribulations" as in challenging times, not a specific doctrine/event) until God's Kingdom reigns on Earth.

But, yeah, I am not a fan, really. It's a fascinating read but there is simply no way to take it literally. It's a tough slog to achieve any real understanding of it. Definitely needs to be read in context, though, not just applied willy-nilly to the present.
 
Luce NDs said:
Bloody bread sops are enough to scare the crap out of those only fed gruel!
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That's one way to describe a little piece of bread and a sip of juice. Since the pandemic we have been picking up a tiny ziplock bag holding a cracker and a grape.
 
paradox3 said:
Revelation talks about the Lamb quite often. Jesus was first called the Lamb of God in John's Gospel. The synoptics do not mention this at all.

I hear you on the flesh eating and blood drinking aspects of Christian theology. Many people in our denomination would agree with you.

I don't mind it myself but I hold a universalist view of salvation. Liturgy these days often uses "bread of life" and "cup of blessing" language. I don't see much point to this. If we can't endorse the traditional language why have communion at all? I would toss it.
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I’m kind of a lapsed church-goer but my favourite was when I went to an alternative sort of communion for young(ish) adults and there was bread, and cheese, and chocolate, and I think we said “cup of blessing” with grape juice. Or just having lunch with a bunch of people - that’s more representative of what happened then.
 
paradox3 said:
Does anyone know if the order of the rapture and the tribulation is reversed elsewhere in the Bible?
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No --it is not reversed in Scripture but many do believe that the Rapture takes place after the 7 Year Tribulation but if you carefully research the Scripture it is definitely before the Tribulation starts -----

Nothing has to happen for the Rapture of the Church to take place -----as what was needed was Jesus to die and be Resurrected ------and that has already happened ----the Rapture can happen at any time -or moment ---

1 ---you see here that Jesus announces His arrival ----- Now not all agree that unbelievers will see or hear this announcement ---many believe only Believers will hear the announcement --so that is up for debate among Scholars ----


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 AMP B​

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [a]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!


2 Jesus second Coming which is after the Tribulation says ------Jesus will come with no announcement -----like a thief in the night ------ jesus says this in Matthew ----about His 2nd coming -----verse 40-41 ----separating the sheep from the goats

Matthew 24:36-41 NIV​

The Day and Hour Unknown​

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father.

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.


2 Peter 3:9-10 ABCE​

9 The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish (pass away) with a thunderous crash, and the [[a]material] elements [of the universe] will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

Also ---He comes the 2nd time with His Raptured Saints ----so the rapture has to have happened before the 2nd coming for Him to be bring them with Him -----

1 Thessalonians 3:11-13 AMP B​

11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and Jesus our Lord guide our steps to you [by removing the obstacles that stand in our way].

12 And may the Lord cause you to increase and excel and overflow in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you;

13 so that He may strengthen and establish your hearts without blame in holiness in the sight of our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His [a]saints (God’s people).

Zechariah 14 AMP ---the 2nd coming ---verse 5​

God Will Battle Jerusalem’s Foes​

14 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you (Jerusalem) will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured and the houses plundered and the women ravished; and half of the city will be exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from the east to the west by a very large valley, and half of the mountain will move toward the north and half of it toward the south.

5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; and you will flee just as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my [a]God will come, and all the holy ones (believers, angels) with Him.

i say ----Again the Lord would have no Saints to bring with Him ---if they were not Raptured before His 2nd coming-----

So the rapture after the Tribulation makes no sense -----
 
Thanks for a comprehensive reply @unsafe

Some people think there are conditions on the Second Coming. The world either needs to be in good enough shape or bad enough shape depending on their personal theology.
 
paradox3 said:
Is the tribulation the same thing as End Times? Or are they separate concepts?
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The tribulation is part of what happens in the end times ---many --many --many people say we are in the end times now ----as Jesus in Matthew talks about what must happen to begin the end times ----

Read Matthew 24 ----
 
unsafe said:
many --many --many people say we are in the end times now
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But people in every generation since Jesus have said that. Some periods have triggered more end times talk than other (e.g. the millenniums in 1000 and 2000, various events like pandemics and wars) but there always seems to be someone around saying it. Even prior to Christianity, you heard it in other societies at times. The "end times" seems to be a bit of a moving target, in other words.
 
unsafe said:
The tribulation is part of what happens in the end times ---many --many --many people say we are in the end times now ----as Jesus in Matthew talks about what must happen to begin the end times ----

Read Matthew 24 ----
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Yes many people are expressing this idea these days. But @Mendalla is right. History repeats itself with these predictions.

There's a theory floating around right now that the end of the present age will occur in the Hebrew year 6000. It has been 5784 on the Jewish calendar since September

Will take a look at Matthew 24. I know this is the gospel which has the dead rising from their graves
 
Mendalla said:
But people in every generation since Jesus have said that. Some periods have triggered more end times talk than other (e.g. the millenniums in 1000 and 2000, various events like pandemics and wars) but there always seems to be someone around saying it. Even prior to Christianity, you heard it in other societies at times. The "end times" seems to be a bit of a moving target, in other words.
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Didn’t Jesus say something to the effect of “the time is now”? Like, we should always be following in his ways as best we can instead of spending our time trying to guess when the end might be (and by extension - who’s getting saved or not)? I don’t remember the exact words or passage but I remember the essence of it.
 
Another thing I might suggest is that John of Patmos had what’s been described as a dark night of the soul and that is how he expressed it. Something a bit more complex than could be given a standard clinical name because he had deep spiritual convictions.
 
paradox3 said:
Yes many people are expressing this idea these days. But @Mendalla is right. History repeats itself with these predictions.

There's a theory floating around right now that the end of the present age will occur in the Hebrew year 6000. It has been 5784 on the Jewish calendar since September

Will take a look at Matthew 24. I know this is the gospel which has the dead rising from their graves
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Doing the math - that’s 216 years left of the present age? How do we define “Age”? (Because 216 years of global capitalism the way it is and how it’s shaping extreme religious reactions to the state of the world, just won’t hold up for that long, realistically.)
 
My impression from reading the synoptics is that Jesus expected the end of the age to arrive soon. There are people who dispute this but at the very least, he continually called for repentance.

Jesus often used parables to describe the Kingdom of God. As we know, parables can be interpreted on many levels.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Doing the math - that’s 216 years left of the present age? How do we define “Age”? (Because 216 years of global capitalism the way it is and how it’s shaping extreme religious reactions to the state of the world, just won’t hold up for that long, realistically.)
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Could take us a while to finish destroying the planet. :oops:
 
I feel that humans are leading ourselves toward a cliff - and have created some really destructive capabilities that shouldn’t exist that make a nightmare scenario possible of our own doing - but I also think we can turn it around. I don’t believe we’re supposed to sit back and let it happen or encourage it. I think some Christians might be better described as Revelationists. That book has been really divisive and alienating to people of other religions and different denominations against each other.

I’m going to bow out now because my criticism is kind of discussion interrupting.
 
paradox3 said:
My impression from reading the synoptics is that Jesus expected the end of the age to arrive soon. There are people who dispute this but at the very least, he continually called for repentance.

Jesus often used parables to describe the Kingdom of God. As we know, parables can be interpreted on many levels.
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Maybe he felt the end was soon for him - it was. So that was the end of the age that he walked the earth in human form. Oops. There I go. I really do need to get going though. Bye for now.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Maybe he felt the end was soon for him - it was. So that was the end of the age that he walked the earth in human form. Oops. There I go. I really do need to get going though. Bye for now.
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I don't think Jesus was just talking about his own end.

But he also predicted his own death and resurrection. Ditto the destruction of the Temple. He did a lot of predicting LoL
 
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