Upon this Rock (Matthew 16: 13-20)

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paradox3 said:
We have ourselves a living, evolving tradition, don't we?
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And it needs to stay that way. Had Christianity not evolved over the centuries, we might still all be Roman Catholics or whatever you call the mainstream church before the West-East schism in 1054. And even prior to that schism, there had been a number of smaller schisms.

And I think, this is the real benefit of Protestantism. By having many, smaller church organizations rather than one monolithic one, there can be more options and ideas, more room for debate and change. More agile, in business speak.
 
Judaism and Christianity have both evolved significantly since Second Temple Judaism.

During this period, different factions appeared. The Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots, I believe, were all established. Jesus argued with the Pharisees but there has been some speculation He might have been one of them.

Others have wondered if Jesus and John the Baptist could have been Essenes. It must have been a chaotic time!
 
paradox3 said:
Jesus argued with the Pharisees but there has been some speculation He might have been one of them.
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He did seem to share a belief in a Judgment Day and resurrection of the body with them. That's probably not enough to say he was one, but they weren't as opposite as it sometimes appears.
paradox3 said:
Others have wondered if Jesus and John the Baptist could have been Essenes.
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The podcasts I was listening to on the Essenes and Qumran got into this a bit and the scholars involved seemed skeptical but not completely dismissive IIRC.
 
Mendalla said:
And I think, this is the real benefit of Protestantism. By having many, smaller church organizations rather than one monolithic one, there can be more options and ideas, more room for debate and change. More agile, in business speak.
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It's both a strength and a weakness, I would say.

Judaism has far fewer divisions, but they certainly have some of them. There are questions about which denominations (yes, they call them denominations) will accept conversions performed by the other groups.

There are humanistic Jewish congregations these days as well.
 
paradox3 said:
Were the Essenes apocalyptic, does anyone know? Jesus certainly was that.
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They were. In fact, one of their texts from the Dead Sea Scrolls is about their version of the apocalypse. They did not, however, apparently believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead as the Pharisees did.

Source (both from Britannica):
The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness | Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran, Apocalyptic Literature (for the apocalypse)
Essene | Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran, Judaism (for the resurrection)
 
A key point is that the version of Matthew that survived to be used as the source for our current version of Matthew may have had this part added after it was originally written by the author of Matthew. To me it is one of the most abused fragments of scripture we have today.

For several years I used Chosen One instead of Christ in my liturgy. Sometimes I used and use Anointed One.

If we take Peter as a type, we could say Jesus built/builds the church on people who tend to screw up from time to time.
 
jimkenney12 said:
If we take Peter as a type, we could say Jesus built/builds the church on people who tend to screw up from time to time.
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Ah yes Peter, the one who denied Jesus 3 times and Jesus told him to get behind me Satan. The one who preached to the gentiles but refused to eat with them.

Also, Jesus is called the "rock" in 1 Corinthians 10:4
Also protestant scholars say that, prior to the reformation of the 16th century, Mathew 16 was very rarely used to support papal claims. ( Although I'm still searching for who these scholars are)
 
Waterfall said:
Ah yes Peter, the one who denied Jesus 3 times and Jesus told him to get behind me Satan. The one who preached to the gentiles but refused to eat with them.
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A very human Peter, no? Jesus works with whatever he has at hand, I guess.
Waterfall said:
Also, Jesus is called the "rock" in 1 Corinthians 10:4
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Yeah a spiritual rock that they all drank from in the time of exile. What does this even mean?
Waterfall said:
Also protestant scholars say that, prior to the reformation of the 16th century, Mathew 16 was very rarely used to support papal claims. ( Although I'm still searching for who these scholars are)
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Well this is interesting. Matthew is usually said to have been written for a Jewish audience. Why would the Jewish people need Peter as the rock? Why would they need the Magi story for that matter?
 
Mendalla said:
And it needs to stay that way. Had Christianity not evolved over the centuries, we might still all be Roman Catholics or whatever you call the mainstream church before the West-East schism in 1054. And even prior to that schism, there had been a number of smaller schisms.

And I think, this is the real benefit of Protestantism. By having many, smaller church organizations rather than one monolithic one, there can be more options and ideas, more room for debate and change. More agile, in business speak.
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Then why such huge, complex business chimera? Chimera is a classic metaphor for monsters ... and I have been dressed down for speaking of such complex issues as the chimera would like it kept simple simple as demons ... forerunner of democratic pondering. I should not have stated that should I; the powers of business, governing and their belief systems are for kings ... secularly all else is Sue S'ide ... downer? It gets right to the imaginary core of industry and activity ... a spot of rest ... involves the fringe of responsibility that is now a topic of question in POTUS/SCOTUS regarding complexity of their responsibilities and iron fists ...

It is so complex and a simple belief System can not receive it as complex ... thus rendered in a literary device to ah Muse the pondering fringe ... said to be 9 've em like Catz lives on the bench?

Does discussion of US tale us off thread from the Peter Prin.? Oh, I must apologize repeatedly for being out and about the fringe ... is that acceptable reverence for those that find my deviations not according to diversity?
 
Mendalla said:
Which is just the translation of "Christ" or "Messiah" so what's the difference?


Nicely put. (y)
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When I use Anointed One or Chosen One, the meaning is clear. It is using street language instead of church language. I suspect most people think Christ means more than it literally does.
 
When the Israelites came into the desert of Sin, they had no water for themselves or their livestock. Moses struck a rock and water poured out from it. The rock was almost certainly a mineral layer that had formed over a spring.

If the Good News was that God loves everyone and seeks relationship with everyone and if the most important command is to love one another, than loving and caring for one another is the most important trait for disciples to have in growing a community of believers. Persisting in loving and caring for others would have constituted perfection by the Jewish definition of perfection, though not by the Greek definition.
 
jimkenney12 said:
When I use Anointed One or Chosen One, the meaning is clear. It is using street language instead of church language. I suspect most people think Christ means more than it literally does.
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But what to do with those that take it literally? In a singular way ... poem I' sol ...
 
jimkenney12 said:
Persisting in loving and caring for others would have constituted perfection by the Jewish definition of perfection
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Was that the Jewish definition of perfection, though? Even in Jesus' time, they seemed more focussed on God caring for the people of Israel and them for each other. Look at the conflict in the early church where some argued that Gentile converts had to essentially become Jews to follow Jesus. Paul fought against that and won. The ideal of a universal human citizenship that calls us to treat all with care is from Stoicism as much as it is from Jewish tradition.

jimkenney12 said:
though not by the Greek definition
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Too broad by far. Stoics, for instance, did have a concept of a universal human citizenship. You're leaning back to Plato, I think, and by the Hellenistic period, Greek philosophy was much more diverse.

 
Diversity ... something all in a greater soul that the mortal sliver ... where the intent is avarice ... one must succeed to put down opposition and often thoughtlessly or without clue ... thus irrationality enters the psyche ... psyche being promptly eliminated ... as too Arian or Ares ... Eire thus rises ... a sad song ... there's more ... after living through ide ... ide needs to be mulled over too!

Could take on the nature of a 6 pointed star ... more curious than one can imagine ...
 
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