BetteTheRed
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Wasn't James Jesus' brother? Wasn't that what the ossuary issue was all about?
Upon this Rock (Matthew 16: 13-20)
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Wasn't James Jesus' brother? Wasn't that what the ossuary issue was all about?
paradox3
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Back to binding and loosing.
The phrase is commonly taken to mean forbidding and permitting. In this case, it seems that Jesus is granting Peter a great deal of authority. More than just a leadership role.
Binding and loosing show up again in Matthew 18:18.
The phrase is commonly taken to mean forbidding and permitting. In this case, it seems that Jesus is granting Peter a great deal of authority. More than just a leadership role.
Binding and loosing show up again in Matthew 18:18.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Interestingly, there he is speaking to the disciples in general, not specifically to Peter. And he actually says almost the exact same thing. So is what he says to Peter in 16 something he later extends to the larger group?
Though given how similar they are, me thinks this may lie with the author or the memory of his sources more than Jesus. Maybe one person remembered it being said to Peter and another remembered it being said out loud so that it seemed to be for the whole group and Matthew then kind of conflated things.
paradox3
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In Luke 9, Jesus calls the 12 together and gives them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases. He then sends them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
In Luke 10 he sends out seventy others two by two. When they return, they are filled with joy and report that demons have submitted to them. Jesus explains he has given them authority to tread on snakes and scorpions.
It seems that the power Jesus can bestow gets distributed more widely over time. Maybe this is the point and the details don't really matter.
In Luke 10 he sends out seventy others two by two. When they return, they are filled with joy and report that demons have submitted to them. Jesus explains he has given them authority to tread on snakes and scorpions.
It seems that the power Jesus can bestow gets distributed more widely over time. Maybe this is the point and the details don't really matter.
unsafe
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No--- Just to Clarify ----- this is not right here ---Peter is not the rock on which Jesus will build His Church
Jesus is the rock on which the Church is built -----
there are 2 different meanings in this scripture here for rock ------you need to look them up to get the real meaning of what is being said here
Peter means------ Rock ---------Greek word is ------ Petros -----a small stone or rock ---
HELPS Word-studies
4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone")
then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder,
The word Rock here in the Scripture ------ is Petra -------NOT Petros -------Jesus is the Rock ---the corner Stone of the Church
HELPS Word-studies
4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock,"
which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone
4073 (pétra) is a "solid or native rock, rising up through the earth" (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.
I say ---------Jesus is the projecting corner Stone the cliff ----the boulder --the mass of rock upon which the church will be built ------
this is the scripture
Matthew 16:18
Amplified Bible
And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades (death) will not overpower it [by preventing the resurrection of the Christ].
The keys of the kingdom of heaven -----because Peter was given the revelation of who Jesus was -----Jesus allows Peter to be the first to have the Keys to the heavenly Kingdom -----
The Keys open the door of Faith and the truth of the Gospel to be preached not just to the Jews but to the Gentiles as well and Peter got to be the first to do so ------the other Apostles were brought in as well once the door was open -----
From Strongs Concordance
a key. Since the keeper of the keys has the power to open and to shut, the word κλείς is figuratively used in the N. T. to denote power and authority of various kinds
Matthew 16:19;
paradox3
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We can believe Jesus is the rock with all our hearts if we want to.
But Jesus is saying something different in Matthew 16. Either Peter himself is the rock or it is Peter's expression of faith that Jesus will build on.
Yes, according to this passage, Peter was the first to understand Jesus correctly. The spread of the early church is a fascinating story.
Mendalla
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Matthew misheard. Jesus was Peter's manager and he said Peter would be the "rock star" on whom he would build his agency. 
Okay, probably not. But interesting that only Matthew included that. So is this a Matthew insertion to buff Peter's image or did the others disregard the source of the information for some reason? Or did Peter really keep that part under his hat per Jesus' request so that only Matthew found out?
Okay, probably not. But interesting that only Matthew included that. So is this a Matthew insertion to buff Peter's image or did the others disregard the source of the information for some reason? Or did Peter really keep that part under his hat per Jesus' request so that only Matthew found out?
paradox3
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Matthew misheard. Jesus was Peter's manager and he said Peter would be the "rock star" on whom he would build his agency.
Seems to me that Matthew must have had a reason for including it. Darned if I can guess the reason though
Nah, I don't think so. Matthew has the other disciples present to relay what they have been hearing.
Mendalla
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Which really brings us back to either a Matthew insertion based on some oral tradition in the community OR a non-apostolic source of unknown provenance. Because if it came from an apostolic source, then the question shifts to why the others didn't include it as much as why Matthew did. And, well, barring discovery of some previously unknown, pre-Gospel documentation that contains the saying, we just can't ever know for certain where he got it from. It's not in Mark, one of his known sources, and if it was in Q, the other, you would think Luke would have it.
paradox3
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More about the binding and loosing.
I was reflecting that these terms themselves are neutral but they can carry either positive or negative connotations.
This had me thinking about the hymn "Blest Be the tie that binds" so I looked it up. To my surprise it was written in 1782.
The scriptural references provided are from Galatians. But I wonder. The hymn talks about relationships between Christians that will carry over into heaven.
I was reflecting that these terms themselves are neutral but they can carry either positive or negative connotations.
This had me thinking about the hymn "Blest Be the tie that binds" so I looked it up. To my surprise it was written in 1782.
The scriptural references provided are from Galatians. But I wonder. The hymn talks about relationships between Christians that will carry over into heaven.
unsafe
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The Church is not built on Peter Himself ---that makes no sense ---Jesus is the head of the Church not Peter ----Peter was given a Revelation by God the Father as to who Jesus was ----
this is the scripture
Peter's Confession
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18
I say ---
So the church is built on the Revelation of the Word which in-births the right Faith in a person ----Revelation Faith comes by hearing the Word ------and Peter was the first to get the keys to open the door for the Revelation of the Word to both Jews and Gentiles
paradox3
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Yes @unsafe you make a good point about the Father in heaven revealing the nature of Christ to Peter.
But you stopped your biblical quote just as you were getting to the part about the rock. You are free to think it makes no sense, but Matthew makes the rock thing pretty clear.
Only Matthew though. The other Gospels don't say this at all.
But you stopped your biblical quote just as you were getting to the part about the rock. You are free to think it makes no sense, but Matthew makes the rock thing pretty clear.
Only Matthew though. The other Gospels don't say this at all.
unsafe
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On binding and Loosing ----in the context of the scripture ---
The concept of “binding and loosing” is taught in the Bible in Matthew 16:19: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” In this verse, Jesus is speaking directly to the apostle Peter and indirectly to the other apostles. Jesus’ words meant that Peter would have the right to enter the kingdom himself, that he would have general authority symbolized by the possession of the keys, and that preaching the gospel would be the means of opening the kingdom of heaven to all believers and shutting it against unbelievers. The book of Acts shows us this process at work. By his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40), Peter opened the door of the kingdom for the first time. The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.
Peter and the other disciples were to continue Christ’s work on earth in preaching the gospel and declaring God’s will to men and they were armed with the same authority as He possessed. In Matthew 18:18, there is also a reference to the binding and loosing in the context of church discipline. The apostles do not usurp Christ’s lordship and authority over individual believers and their eternal destiny, but they do exercise the authority to discipline and, if necessary, excommunicate disobedient church members.
It’s not that the apostles were given the privilege of changing God’s mind, as if whatever they decided on earth would be duplicated in heaven; rather, they were encouraged that, as they moved forward in their apostolic duties, they would be fulfilling God’s plan in heaven. When the apostles “bound” something, or forbade it on earth, they were carrying out the will of God in the matter. When they “loosed” something, or allowed it on earth, they were likewise fulfilling God’s eternal plan. In both Matthew 16:19 and 18:18, the syntax of the Greek text makes the meaning clear: “Whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens” (Matthew 16:19, Young’s Literal Translation). Or, as the Amplified Bible puts it, “Whatever you bind [forbid, declare to be improper and unlawful] on earth will have [already] been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose [permit, declare lawful] on earth will have [already] been loosed in heaven.”
Jesus taught that the apostles had a special task on earth. Their words of authority, as recorded in the New Testament epistles, reflect God’s will for the church. When Paul declared an anathema on those who pervert the gospel, then we know that anathema was already declared in heaven (see Galatians 1:8–9)
What does the Bible mean by binding and loosing?
The concept of “binding and loosing” is taught in the Bible in Matthew 16:19: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” In this verse, Jesus is speaking directly to the apostle Peter and indirectly to the other apostles. Jesus’ words meant that Peter would have the right to enter the kingdom himself, that he would have general authority symbolized by the possession of the keys, and that preaching the gospel would be the means of opening the kingdom of heaven to all believers and shutting it against unbelievers. The book of Acts shows us this process at work. By his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40), Peter opened the door of the kingdom for the first time. The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.
Peter and the other disciples were to continue Christ’s work on earth in preaching the gospel and declaring God’s will to men and they were armed with the same authority as He possessed. In Matthew 18:18, there is also a reference to the binding and loosing in the context of church discipline. The apostles do not usurp Christ’s lordship and authority over individual believers and their eternal destiny, but they do exercise the authority to discipline and, if necessary, excommunicate disobedient church members.
It’s not that the apostles were given the privilege of changing God’s mind, as if whatever they decided on earth would be duplicated in heaven; rather, they were encouraged that, as they moved forward in their apostolic duties, they would be fulfilling God’s plan in heaven. When the apostles “bound” something, or forbade it on earth, they were carrying out the will of God in the matter. When they “loosed” something, or allowed it on earth, they were likewise fulfilling God’s eternal plan. In both Matthew 16:19 and 18:18, the syntax of the Greek text makes the meaning clear: “Whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens” (Matthew 16:19, Young’s Literal Translation). Or, as the Amplified Bible puts it, “Whatever you bind [forbid, declare to be improper and unlawful] on earth will have [already] been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose [permit, declare lawful] on earth will have [already] been loosed in heaven.”
Jesus taught that the apostles had a special task on earth. Their words of authority, as recorded in the New Testament epistles, reflect God’s will for the church. When Paul declared an anathema on those who pervert the gospel, then we know that anathema was already declared in heaven (see Galatians 1:8–9)
Mendalla
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There's historical as well as Biblical problems with that whole idea. Really, the bishopric of Rome doesn't really become institutionalized until much later. I doubt there even was such a thing at the time he died, said by many early Christian sources to have been in Nero's persecution of 64CE.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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But they are apparently inserting the "already" and even acknowledge that with the square brackets. So that's apparently their interpretation and does not seem to match more literal, scholarly translations of the Greek. Even older translations like the KJV and Wycliffe don't have "already" or similar wording there (yes, I checked on Biblegateway).
Leading to the conclusion you cannot trust anything ... only nothing remains un altered ... as an intangible ...