Death - An end, A beginning, A passage, or what?

[Mendalla]

Yeah, yeah, a bit morbid. For reasons that many of you know, death has been on my mind. I have my Epicurean outlook on it that I posted in, I think, the euthanasia thread but like so much of what I believe, that isn't cast in stone. It's where I'm at but not necessarily where I will always be.

Death is also a major topic in religious thought and has been forever. "What happens when we die?" is one of those fundamental questions that religion has dealt in. Even philosophical discussions of the subject (e.g. Plato's afterlife in The Republic) are generally tinged with religion (e.g. Plato's version has clear Orphic influences). Of course, Easter is looming which deals heavily in the Christian understanding of Death.

So, I'm putting it out as a poll and inviting you to answer and then discuss your view in detail.

There is no right answer to this question. It is a matter of personal faith (I know, I know, spoken like a true agnostic ). So you can discuss and dissect and question each other's ideas, but please keep it civil and friendly.

 

[Carolla]

Heady subject for a Friday night, after a busy & stressful week, and a glass of wine with friend & family over dinner.

I don't really believe in an "afterlife" or "heaven" - more that our energy remains in the universe, that our memories & love linger on in the minds and hearts of those we have impacted during life. Yesterday was my mom's birthday - she died 15 years ago, would have been 89 - I thought of her, felt her spirit still with me in all the best of ways.

 

[GordW]

Trying to decide which otion I will click. The interesting thing is that while many people feel the quintessentially "Christian" or Scriptural answer is "The end of life in this world, but a passage to a new life in a new world (afterlife)" (and the one I think is closest to my thoughts) I would argue that the Jewish understnading of resurrection and the one offered by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 (understandably since he was a Jewish person) is "The end of life for now, but God will raise his chosen back up on the Judgement Day."

True, Paul hedges his bets a bit because he is dealing with the faith reality of the Risen Christ. SO he has phrased it as Christ as the firstfruits, and that the general resurrection is about to happen. [for Paul it appears that this is imminent--2000 years later.....]

 

[GordW]

Mind you in the end the most honest answer any of us can give is the agnostic one. We really don't and can't "know". We can believe.

 

[Mendalla]

Mind you in the end the most honest answer any of us can give is the agnostic one. We really don't and can't "know". We can believe.

Oh, agreed, but I suspect blackbelt and some others might disagree with us.

On to my answer.

Empirically, I lean to the first option. That's also the Epicurean answer. The end is the end and that's a good thing because it means all of our suffering and anxiety end.

Then again, the universe has a tendency to recycle. Whether we as individuals go on, the matter and energy making us up definitely and will definitely reappear in new forms and places. So, if we have a "soul" or some other continuation, it seems to me that that would also be "recycled", which leads to some form of reincarnation (second option).

I have no faith or experiential reason to believe in an afterlife or resurrection so those ones are out, though I cannot rule them out. I would say they are low on the probability scale as I see the universe.

Which brings me to my actual answer: "We cannot be certain until we get there". Agnosticism wins though I do rather take the Epicurean stance that death is not to be feared as it is a natural and normal end to things rather than worrying about the possibility of an afterlife.

 

[Carolla]

Mind you in the end the most honest answer any of us can give is the agnostic one. We really don't and can't "know". We can believe.

True GordW - I was wavering back & forth between that & what I eventually chose, which was none of the above

 

[dreamerman]

Oh, agreed, but I suspect blackbelt and some others might disagree with us.

On to my answer.

Empirically, I lean to the first option. That's also the Epicurean answer. The end is the end and that's a good thing because it means all of our suffering and anxiety end.

Then again, the universe has a tendency to recycle. Whether we as individuals go on, the matter and energy making us up definitely and will definitely reappear in new forms and places. So, if we have a "soul" or some other continuation, it seems to me that that would also be "recycled", which leads to some form of reincarnation (second option).

I have no faith or experiential reason to believe in an afterlife or resurrection so those ones are out, though I cannot rule them out. I would say they are low on the probability scale as I see the universe.

Which brings me to my actual answer: "We cannot be certain until we get there". Agnosticism wins though I do rather take the Epicurean stance that death is not to be feared as it is a natural and normal end to things rather than worrying about the possibility of an afterlife.

This is my feeling also. I agree with everything mentioned here except the part about we cannot be certain until we get there. Maybe we will never get there. Maybe we will never know what happens when we die. All we can be certain of is that eventually we will all die.

 

[Jaebius]

Personally, I believe in a combination of these two -

• The end of life in this world, but a passage to a new life in a new world (afterlife)
• The end of life for now, but God will raise his chosen back up on the Judgement Day.

 

[Mendalla]

Personally, I believe in a combination of these two -

• The end of life in this world, but a passage to a new life in a new world (afterlife)
• The end of life for now, but God will raise his chosen back up on the Judgement Day.

Can you expand on that a bit? Curious as to how you bash those two together.

 

[Mendalla]

To give some meat to the discussion, a few more questions to chew on.

How do you feel about your death (fear, sadness, trepidation, joy)?

Does that influence your belief or is it the other way around (your belief influences how you feel)?

Is it different than how you feel about the death of loved ones or others around you?

 

[Luce NDs]

When you consider the bashing of friends and relatives take from us ... under the rule of sibling rivalry (you may know this as unrelenting competition to be more powerful than the lesser homunculus) is life de chitz, or just chintzy?

Considering life this way ... which way is out?

Then there is the rule on blind spirits, moods, rants, rages and other emotions; if we are simply emotional critters how would we know until moving along in an odd existence? As with a wine, some mellowing may be required in the squeak, or outlanders 'owl! Thus enemies are outdone by fearful stories of wee creeps in the dark. Look what the Celts did with blue men ... all painted up like ladies! Then Cleo Patras was really kohl ... but here again misunderstood myths that scare the best of predators! Now if I indicate myself as mentally distraught ... will this scare my primary enemies ... and thus I will be driven from my skin? That's an out of bode an emotions as converted to a dark thought seen going ... just smoking it as in dark, dirty mires! Today in advertising push these are called smoke and mirrors! If you can properly lodge fear ... you can cause people to purchase anything ... even toxins! You just wouldn't believe the crap that people consume: spiritually, bodily of mentally ... the latter being an absence ... or what other's call devoid of wisdom ... why life exists! So those out there have a painful source of learning ... but non one knows ... due to anon enmity and thus it wasn't. You can't see this unless pondering outside the box of what's envisioned by people that would like one up on yah! May appear sad but being bottom line is sometimes the most a' muse in way to tickle authorities innards with a lesson.

Howver some are so into denial they don't understand what a myth doesn't mean in a double negative ... the only way you can speak to teo faced Romans ... CA Deuces! The "c" being light and the "a" being initiation ... or a flash of insight about how a thing isn't ... as defined by the word incarnate. If you didn't understand this concept ... you'd never comprehend what I'm speaking about as a well rounded concern about god's points as scattered! Cadeuces ... like dual spirits can get yah coming and going ... unless you're a monotheist and you'd be stuck on a won way street ... believing you won the eternal conflict ... a small concession!

There is an old axiom that says only love transpires across the stonewalling of death ... and thus such transgression is normally without sense, or musing ... perhaps anonymous. If this is so could there be a cos in the altruism ... or a double alternate?

This could explain the abstract projection of a dark mire in the imaginary organ we call soul, mind, psyche ... that is a Eire in the emotional domain ... perhaps just a mere bump? This would be the direct opposite of Einstein's dimples in space ... where space for thought is driven out due to collective gravitas ... a centre of gravity?

Some people believe that gravity is a strange force ... as a metaphor something you can't see and thus biblically unseen ... leading to Jesus dealings with blind and crippled people that fall all over that unseen point as an emotional boso ... a god particle in another belief system because the Cyrillic "n" was attached to the end as an icon of a holy letter like the Hebrew "heh" an offspring of literary word when dealing with Semite things ... black smears on the walls of holes in the mountain?

So in conclusion, really, in the competition who'd really care about death if they didn't see it coming as a virtual domain of nothing? There appear to be summer Eire cases ... as dumb airs that are Luke warm ... medium states of the old phi ard ... as "heh" who messes with your thoughts from the other's ID of IT ... an indeterminate fun ction, or Zion as the wee chit took of and flew!

This allowed the beginning of kinetic theory and the enigma of fugacity and why old farts disperse! They've probably had enough of this emotional baggage ... like Jonah or that other Dick that messed with the white monstrous Levite ... thus emotions descend into the adepts ... as the only ones appreciating celestial humour as cosmological comedy about what we don't know! Thus it wasn't ...

 

[Jaebius]

Can you expand on that a bit? Curious as to how you bash those two together.

Okay . What I believe Mendalla is that upon death, the spirits of the righteous go to be with Jesus, while their bodies remain on Earth. Further, I believe that when Jesus returns, he will bring the spirits of the righteous with him and reunite them with their bodies to live with him on the new Earth he will create.

 

[Lastpointe]

I do believe in an afterlife.

But i dont find myself happy anticipating death.

And i was not happy when my parents and in laws died. I wanted them with me.

 

[Luce NDs]

What is the defining power of righteous ... those on top?

I would be willing to bet those as the stumbling block to those on top would have a differing perspective!

After that whose the left behind crowd ... hermeneutic ... a' post ole for the ET'ic?

 

[Jaebius]

To give some meat to the discussion, a few more questions to chew on.

How do you feel about your death (fear, sadness, trepidation, joy)?

Not much really. If it happens it happens. I live for today.

Does that influence your belief or is it the other way around (your belief influences how you feel)?

I believe that Jesus has everything under control, so - why worry.

Is it different than how you feel about the death of loved ones or others around you?

When people I've loved have died in the past, I've felt a mixture of sadness, wonder, and in a couple of cases surprise .

 

[Jaebius]

What is the defining power of righteous ... those on top?

I would be willing to bet those as the stumbling block to those on top would have a differing perspective!

After that whose the left behind crowd ... hermeneutic ... a' post ole for the ET'ic?

Luce, I believe that the righteous those in the kingdom of God.

 

[Luce NDs]

In the kingdom of love ... ahah ... those who already lost IT ... Q'luce that is ...

 

[Pinga]

Interesting thread. I do not know what, if anything, follows death.

I figure "heaven on earth". We live our life to our best, knowing that we screw up, and try to make the world a better place for our being here.

I am not sure what happens if anything with our energy. I had an image of our spirit, being, energy transforming into a cloud of energy , whirling together, in the space that surrounds, not being aware of what went on before, just being. Wonderful colours of energy weaving. I imagined such energy centering on those spots we refer to as "thin spots" or "holy ground". That a sanctuary could be such a thin spot.

What do I logically believe, that when we.are dead our spark of life ends, that our brain shuts down, and our afterlife is in the memory of those who live on, in the pieces of writing we leave behind, of the constructions that have occurred.

I do not look upon death with any regard. Sure, if facing death I will fight it if my life is worthy of living still. I love life too much to let it go. Yet, I do not look to death as an entry into heaven. It is not something I jump forward into.

(Great thread, Mendalla )

 

[Luce NDs]

If one was sharp enough to see the solution to the enigma of life ... would the paradigm label you as a crazy visionary about the way out of a tasteless domain of cruelty?

Consider how many brutes love sports with bloodshed ... and little room is left for violent activities like bowling and golf unless someone but big stakes in the greens ... corrupted ethics? Humour of the outlier type ... only for fringe types that are in relief ... just out of here ... like Moses and God ... dually recessive?

Moses didn't even like the chimeric calf showing in the depths of the veil ... that wall separating parts in tent! Divine pathe's as the pain of mutual carries ... matched holes or other devoid areas of intense mood ... flighty spirits?

 

[Seeler]

To give some meat to the discussion, a few more questions to chew on.

How do you feel about your death (fear, sadness, trepidation, joy)?

Does that influence your belief or is it the other way around (your belief influences how you feel)?

Is it different than how you feel about the death of loved ones or others around you?

First, the question in the opening paragraph. Death - I believe it is the end of life as we knoww it; the end of life in our physical bodies. Whether or not that is 'the end' is something that each of uss cannot 'know' until it happens. Somehow I believe like Paul that 'nothing can separate us from the Love of God' - not even death. I believe that there is 'something' beyond the death of our physical bodies.

How do I feel about my death? Sadness - leaving the people I love, the things I enjoy. And it seems a shame that knowledge, understanding, insight that I've spent a lifetime acquiring will (mainly) be lost when I am gone. (Oh, I know - I've passed some of it on to my children and grandchildren, to my friends, to others - perhaps someone on WC has picked up on something I said and been influenced by it - but for the most part all that I know will be gone when I am gone.

Does that influence my belief about death / or vice versa) - I don't know. My belief system is so much a part of who I am that I cannot separate them.

Is it different than how you feel about the death of others? I don't think so. I mourn them leaving me; I will miss them. I mourn the idea of leaving them; I will miss them then too. And I am saddened to lose the great minds (Borg, for instance) and the one's closer to home (my mother, my aunt). Who can I ask about our family history when all my elders are gone? Who will pass on the favourite recipe for gumdrop cake? Who will tell the stories?