Anyone have a crystal ball?

[paradox3]

You are whistling past the UCCan graveyard, or should I say, "the valley of dry bones." If immigration was a factor, these sociologists would have mentioned it. But even if you were right, you would be confronted by the understandable appeal of evangelical churches to immigrants rather than progressive churches. My crystal ball shows that the future and hope of UCCan lies in its conservative reform movement.

We don't have a conservative reform movement that I know of. Are you referring to Cruxifusion? It is a support network for the like minded.

 

[jimkenney12]

Here's a quote from the sociological study:
"Amid the decades-long decline in mainline Protestantism in North America, researchers in Canada recently found an “elusive sample” of congregations whose growth has bucked the trend.

The key characteristic these exceptional Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and United churches had in common? Evangelical theology.
With fewer evangelicals and more secular surroundings than their brethren in the United States, Canada’s mainline denominations collectively lost half of their members over the past 50 years. Last year, a team of sociologists suggested that conservative theological beliefs—including emphasis on Scripture as the “actual word of God” and belief in the power of prayer—may be the saving grace keeping attendance up at 9 of 22 Ontario churches studied."

Sorry Jim, no mention of immigration being a factor.

Looked at your quote again. What was the background of the sociologists doing the study? They seemed to use evangelical theology and conservative theology interchangeably. Evangelicals like me take offense with that practice. There is a wide divergence in theology among evangelicals.

 

[Mendalla]

I guess my question would be whether it is possible to have UCCan (or any Reformed denomination) that is traditional in its theology but liberal in its treatment of women, LGBTQ+, and racial issues. I think these exist, e.g. I have heard that Metropolitan Community is fairly traditional in their theology even as they are the most accepting of LGBTQ.

So is that what you are talking about here @Mystic? Because I have long had a sense that you, for instance, do not have a problem with LGBTQ in the church. Correct me if I am wrong.

I could handle a church like that as long as they weren't too rigid doctrinally and didn't mind me crossing my fingers at certain points in the older creeds.

 

[Mystic]

I guess my question would be whether it is possible to have UCCan (or any Reformed denomination) that is traditional in its theology but liberal in its treatment of women, LGBTQ+, and racial issues. I think these exist, e.g. I have heard that Metropolitan Community is fairly traditional in their theology even as they are the most accepting of LGBTQ.

So is that what you are talking about here @Mystic? Because I have long had a sense that you, for instance, do not have a problem with LGBTQ in the church. Correct me if I am wrong.

I could handle a church like that as long as they weren't too rigid doctrinally and didn't mind me crossing my fingers at certain points in the older creeds.

In my 2-church UMC charge in Western NT, one church asked me to do a Bible study on homosexuality. It was a gay-friendly survey of all the relevant texts. Word got out to the gay community in Rochester (45 miles away) and gays and lesbians began to flock to that church. Some of the miracles reported on this site happened in that context. It was a tricky situation because we were not "an open and affirming" church. The gays and lesbians knew this and came because (not in spite) of this. When asked why they didn't attend the open and affirming churches in Rochester, they gave 2 reasons: (1) They were hungry for Bible-based teaching that took the authority of Scripture seriously. (2) They felt treated like pawns in a politically correct game in woke Rochester churches and, by contrast, loved the warm and acceptance they felt from our rural conservative people generated by direct personal encounters.

 

[Mystic]

We don't have a conservative reform movement that I know of. Are you referring to Cruxifusion? It is a support network for the like minded.

Judging by the phone call from one of their leaders last week, they do seem to view themselves as a reform movement. They have a major conference in Hamilton next month. We may work out a plan in which I send sermon material for their lay ministers and preachers who have not had the benefit of a good seminary education.

One of my pet peeves in the UMC was the unwillingness to help educationally unqualified lay ministers and preachers. Monthly meetings with seminary-trained ministers and professors could mitigate this problem, but egos prevented that from happening. Better still, a website could have been set up or modified to provide interactive exegesis of lectionary texts for them and responses to their specific questions about texts, commentaries, sermon illustration books and periodicals, and other resource materials.

 

[paradox3]

@Mystic
Cruxifusion describes itself as a network supporting Christ centred ministry.

They don't have a big public presence which is something we might expect from a reform movement. The group has an annual conference and publishes a newsletter.

I guess there might be more than one way to go about reform.

@RevNP joined us here briefly for some discussion a few years ago.

 

[Mendalla]

They were hungry for Bible-based teaching that took the authority of Scripture seriously

Yeah, I heard this from a lesbian couple who attended my UU church for a time. It's why they ended up at Metropolitan Community instead of us.

 

[jimkenney12]

There are several versions of Bible based teaching. One version relies on traditional interpretations and exegesis of the Bible. Another version examines the original context of the scripture and how it might apply today. I prefer the second version.

 

[Mystic]

Both versions are inseparable. Accurate exegesis requires a knowledge of the historical and cultural setting. For example, a proper grasp of 1-2 Corinthians and Galatians requires a knowledge of the nature and beliefs of Paul's opponents in these churches. Modern application of Scripture is misguided apart from accurate exegesis that takes into account original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek nuance, which must confront traditional interpretation, but need not end there.

 

[paradox3]

Getting back to the crystal ball and the future of the church. According to the ideas on this thread:

We might become more congregational.
Our numbers will keep falling.
We might start coordinating our efforts more.
We might see a shift to the traditional end of the theological spectrum.

Did I miss anything from the discussion here?

 

[Waterfall]

What does the future hold for the United Church? Do you have any predictions? What are your hopes?

I think the United Church knows where it is heading and someday down the road it will be the evangelical churches turn. Our cultures change but often the churches dont....this doesnt mean the gospel has to change IMO, just an updating of the message that makes it more relevant to now. ( if that makes sense)

 

[paradox3]

I think the United Church knows where it is heading and someday down the road it will be the evangelical churches turn. Our cultures change but often the churches dont....this doesnt mean the gospel has to change IMO, just an updating of the message that makes it more relevant to now. ( if that makes sense)

Where do you think the United Church is heading in that case?

 

[jimkenney12]

I believe it will become more diverse, regional, and congregational. The College will have many intense debates about qualifications for ministry. The National church will back down from the one order of ministry. Some congregations will become mission fields. Some will become part of geographic cooperative ministries. A few will become part of like interest cooperative ministries capable of transcending national boundaries.

 

[Mendalla]

Where do you think the United Church is heading in that case?

Would UU'ism be a possible model? Congregational but with a national body to coordinate things like theological education and standards for ministry, advocacy at the national level, and such? That's basically how CUC (Canadian Unitarian Council) and UUA (Unitarian Universalist Association) operate.

 

[Waterfall]

Where do you think the United Church is heading in that case?

Extinction possibly.

 

[jimkenney12]

Dispersion is more likely than extinction

 

[Waterfall]

Dispersion is more likely than extinction

It's a nice word, hopefully.

 

[Mystic]

Here's what I told the Cruxifusion female leader who called me.
What is needed is the equivalent of a seminary education on an "as needed basis," probably focused for convenience on the lectionary.
Seminarians who buy, say, Raymond Brown's massive New Testament Introduction are rarely ready for the tedium of reading it through.
Productive retention is maximized by burning questions and necessity. You are more likely to connect history, culture, and textual meaning if your burning questions are addressed and the answers generally lead to a gradually coherent grasp of the whole subject in question. If you have to preach on 1 of 4 lectionary texts next Sunday, you are more likely to retain the exegetical, historical, and cultural materials presented in tandem with a verse by verse analysis.

The focus needs to be on how to think about Scripture rather than on what the scholarly consensus is about each issue and text. For example, each lay minister needs to buy Throckmorton's "Gospel Parallels," which lines up the 3 Synoptic Gospels in parallel columns, so that the reader learns to distinguish Jesus' intentions from the agenda of the Gospel writers. Of course, modern scholarship interprets these differences as Matthean and Lucan modifications
of Mark and Q, but lay ministers should rather be exposed to the significant editorial alterations, so that they can assess these verdicts for themselves.

Wherever relevant, the nuances of the underlying Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic should be presented in tandem with the exegesis. Regular 2-day workshops on Greek and Hebrew should be provided to impart just enough knowledge of the original languages, so that lay ministers can better understand language word studies and the best Bible commentaries that refer to these languages.





y

 

[Luce NDs]

I believe it will become more diverse, regional, and congregational. The College will have many intense debates about qualifications for ministry. The National church will back down from the one order of ministry. Some congregations will become mission fields. Some will become part of geographic cooperative ministries. A few will become part of like interest cooperative ministries capable of transcending national boundaries.

Will it cluster as anonymous unknowns so as to preserve great portions of what we don't know as isolated knowledge?

This could easily support several theories about island-like characters ... beyond those people determined to have the world stripped of greater intelligence, etc. Consequences???? Numbed questions ... they settle down as edifice 'd ... fixed? Yet some go on into the darkness for a vision ... and then something occurs ... what? We are not allowed such sacred knowledge ... the pious has declared!

Somewhat of a stiffing ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Yeah, I heard this from a lesbian couple who attended my UU church for a time. It's why they ended up at Metropolitan Community instead of us.

I know of a couple that did this for the entertainment value ... while the main subjects took it as serious. One of the couple died recently ... could it be because of the relationship with entertainment? There are several perspectives ...