Anyone have a crystal ball?

[paradox3]

Just joking about the crystal ball!

What does the future hold for the United Church? Do you have any predictions? What are your hopes?

 

[Mendalla]

Likely more of the same. A few churches like Hillhurst hit on a winning formula and thrive, the rest struggle.

Here in London, we've seen the sanctuary of Metropolitan, the largest in the city building-wise, turned into a concert hall outside of Sunday morning. Hopefully, then, we'll see more churches getting into those sorts of partnerships (this is with London Symphonia, our local orchestra) to make facilities more sustainable.

 

[paradox3]

The United Church was the church of my childhood and I drifted away from it as a teenager. I returned when I was in my late thirties and I have been back since 1992.

The denomination had been in the news a few years earlier. The congregation I joined had a gay minister who was in the process of coming out when she died. I only knew her for a year but she had a big impact on me.

The biggest change I noticed on my return was the open communion table. Gone were the days that children were not welcome at the table.

More inclusive language was being phased in.

In the same year Sunday shopping was allowed for the first time in Ontario. How much has this affected church life, I wonder?

In 1992 Toronto Conference had 9 presbyteries. Scarborough Presbytery had 26 congregations although one was located in Pickering and one in Markham.

We have seen significant restructuring in the Church in response to changing realities.

In the geographic area of Scarborough we now have 8 congregations. There have been both closures and amalgamations. Even closures of amalgamated congregations.

Has the decline in numbers been this drastic where you live?

What does the future hold for us?

 

[paradox3]

Likely more of the same. A few churches like Hillhurst hit on a winning formula and thrive, the rest struggle.

Here in London, we've seen the sanctuary of Metropolitan, the largest in the city building-wise, turned into a concert hall outside of Sunday morning. Hopefully, then, we'll see more churches getting into those sorts of partnerships (this is with London Symphonia, our local orchestra) to make facilities more sustainable.

Yes I was thinking that a few innovative ministries are thriving but many congregations struggle.

Here in Scarborough there is one congregation that appears to be aging out of existence. There is also a well known congregation which has sold its building but is still alive and kicking.

Interesting to hear about Metropolitan in London. St Paul's in Orillia has done the same. Both are magnificent old buildings.

 

[Luce NDs]

Many are limited in what insubstantial matter they can learn about from out of here ... expect many metaphors given what is avoided! The great beyond is offered and thus out there ... for those seeking simple ... don't go there ...

Hang close and take a peek off the doghouse ... a raised structure on a vessel ... the vessel is difficult to observe from lodged points on the surface ... do not accept superficial ... there's mores ...

 

[paradox3]

Interested in your thoughts @Luce NDs if you would like to express them more clearly.

 

[Luce NDs]

Can stardust be clarified ... unless turning all the distant lights out? May require a Willie as Nell Son ... expect highs as people search for a place out of thought ranges! Maybe an exponential disposal ... as the wholes fall! Irreconcilable irrationality ... may be nothing ... but lights out! Dark abstraction period ... shadow personality! Develops in Game Theory ... declared as a Beautiful Mind ... Inuit a session of believing we're with ide ... vision or dream?

Takes some stretch of reality ... Ankh? The pain of learning as pathological drift ... d not go there to stay ... life with crazies is contagious ... is crazy irrational?

Then what is rational? thus it counters ... the substance we're up against ... CON's? They too have sacred agendas ...

Might something break out of the experience of lack of sapient essence? Dead trees of wisdom ... fossil forests ...

 

[Mendalla]

Has the decline in numbers been this drastic where you live?

We have certainly had some amalgamations around here. Arva joined Siloam just before (or maybe during) the pandemic. That's the most recent one I know of. I haven't been to church since that fateful day in March, 2020 so not sure how bad things are. Haven't even looked at any annual reports this year, which I sometimes do for churches that I know post them publicly on their site.

 

[Mystic]

By contrast, Canadian evangelicala churches, even in mainline denominations like UCCan, are understandably growing in leaps and bounds because of their emphasis on the power of intercessory prayer, the authority of Scripture, and their stress on an intimate personal relationship with Christ:

Even in Canada, Conservative Churches Are Growing

Mainline churches with evangelical leanings outpace their liberal counterparts, study says.

www.christianitytoday.com

Canadian youth recognize that UCCan is basically a social justice club draped in pious jargon, a cause that secular organizations promote more effectively.

 

[Carolla]

No crystal ball here - but I do feel some optimism about an evolving church that might be closer to the roots of Christianity.

I read this post yesterday in James Clear's 3.2.1. newsletter. I was thinking about the river being God/Spirit/the Divine (whatever you would call it) and the rock being the 'institutional church' that evolved over hundreds of years but is now in a state of change.

Farmer and writer, Wendell Berry, on the persistence of rivers:​

​

“To a river, as to any natural force, an obstruction is merely an opportunity. For the river’s nature is to flow; it is not just spatial in dimension, but temporal as well. All things must yield to the impulse of the water in time, if not today then tomorrow or in a thousand years. If its way is obstructed then it goes around the obstruction or under it or over it and, flowing past it, wears it away. Men may dam it and say that they have made a lake, but it will still be a river. It will keep its nature and bide its time, like a caged wild animal alert for the slightest opening. In time it will have its way; the dam like the ancient cliffs will be carried away piecemeal in the currents.”​

​

Source: The Unforeseen Wilderness​

 

[paradox3]

By contrast, Canadian evangelicala churches, even in mainline denominations like UCCan, are understandably growing in leaps and bounds because of their emphasis on the power of intercessory prayer, the authority of Scripture, and their stress on an intimate personal relationship with Christ:

Even in Canada, Conservative Churches Are Growing

Mainline churches with evangelical leanings outpace their liberal counterparts, study says.

www.christianitytoday.com

Canadian youth recognize that UCCan is basically a social justice club draped in pious jargon, a cause that secular organizations promote more effectively.

Tried to read this article but it is behind a paywall

 

[jimkenney12]

Most of the growth of Conservative Churches are through immigration. The Catholic Church is growing through immigration. Most poor countries are dominated by conservative religions, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.

 

[jimkenney12]

I believe the United Church will become increasingly congregational with thriving congregations in urban settings helping each other thrive while congregations resistant to change and cooperation will wilt away. Rural congregations focused on being faith communities will find ways to cooperatively cope with their challenges, often becoming almost like seeds waiting for the right conditions to grow and bloom again.

 

[Mystic]

Tried to read this article but it is behind a paywal

Here's a quote from the sociological study:
"Amid the decades-long decline in mainline Protestantism in North America, researchers in Canada recently found an “elusive sample” of congregations whose growth has bucked the trend.

The key characteristic these exceptional Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and United churches had in common? Evangelical theology.
With fewer evangelicals and more secular surroundings than their brethren in the United States, Canada’s mainline denominations collectively lost half of their members over the past 50 years. Last year, a team of sociologists suggested that conservative theological beliefs—including emphasis on Scripture as the “actual word of God” and belief in the power of prayer—may be the saving grace keeping attendance up at 9 of 22 Ontario churches studied."

Sorry Jim, no mention of immigration being a factor.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Clearly an article that didn't examine a bunch of angles, then. The boost that evangelicals receive via immigration are short-lived, though. Their children become as secular as Canadian children tend.

 

[Mystic]

Clearly an article that didn't examine a bunch of angles, then. The boost that evangelicals receive via immigration are short-lived, though. Their children become as secular as Canadian children tend.

You are whistling past the UCCan graveyard, or should I say, "the valley of dry bones." If immigration was a factor, these sociologists would have mentioned it. But even if you were right, you would be confronted by the understandable appeal of evangelical churches to immigrants rather than progressive churches. My crystal ball shows that the future and hope of UCCan lies in its conservative reform movement.

 

[Redbaron]

Yet it seems that all the conservative support movements (Community of Concern, National Alliance of Covenanting Congregations, United Church Renewal Fellowship) tend to go bankrupt, and end up sending their last few dollars to groups like Cruxifusion. Though there is a vocal conservative part of the Church, it seems most of their organizational efforts turn to dust.

 

[Redbaron]

I had a crystal ball once, however, it rolled off the table one day and proved it didn't bounce. But I would agree with jimkenney12, that there will develop new ties between congregations, and more cooperation.

 

[Luce NDs]

I had a crystal ball once, however, it rolled off the table one day and proved it didn't bounce. But I would agree with jimkenney12, that there will develop new ties between congregations, and more cooperation.

It will require some brute forces tho' ... like living next to a bull that is determined to control your life and not his elf!

Enter the mat ador*eh on the way out of dealing with such unfeeling crap ... the little things become a pain?

Sort of a light after the rain? O' the blossoming!

Then there is the article about names like Ma'am, Mum, Sir and Big Sur as metaphors about fear of mellowing change and ability to pick up on the onus ... resembles ripening culpability! Any word that one can alter to avid the primal pathae ...

Ever get that feeling that something in life is a bit off? Thus that out of here sentient ... something we haven't grasp yet! There is a lot to put together in a broken society ... folks that find everything around them ... somewhat dark and strange, mysterious? Yet they will not ask! That is the question ... for getting into the mystery ... a psyche thing in a world that denies psyche for command of the great gonad ... the head, mun! Numb urchins ... as a gathering of points ...

The point of ignorance, stupidity and naivete can be made use of by either side ... unreal or virtue! Thus he item must fade and die by times ... wipeout? Them are the breaks when conflict is declared the resolution ... busted flat ... Baton Rouge is a bloody stick ... and someone was scarred and changed ...

A deep song on how blues was initiated ... lost love??? Jesus, Jesus, Jesus ... there's just something about that name (metaphor misused)??? That is the curios ... like a burning boo-ish item ... scary this thig called love when blind! Maybe just a rage or rant ...

 

[jimkenney12]

Here's a quote from the sociological study:
"Amid the decades-long decline in mainline Protestantism in North America, researchers in Canada recently found an “elusive sample” of congregations whose growth has bucked the trend.

The key characteristic these exceptional Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and United churches had in common? Evangelical theology.
With fewer evangelicals and more secular surroundings than their brethren in the United States, Canada’s mainline denominations collectively lost half of their members over the past 50 years. Last year, a team of sociologists suggested that conservative theological beliefs—including emphasis on Scripture as the “actual word of God” and belief in the power of prayer—may be the saving grace keeping attendance up at 9 of 22 Ontario churches studied."

Sorry Jim, no mention of immigration being a factor.

Your synopsis did not include any demographic information. Your comments fail to acknowledge there are social activist evangelicals. Hillhurst is an affirming congregation whose strengths includes their outward focus and attention to spiritual formation. In 1965 a newspaper forecast the death of the United Church by about 1995. It will probably outlive you and I.

The sociologists were not certain about what was keeping attendance up at those 9 churches. One church I am supervising is growing after a conservative minister left and the congregation moved to be a more welcoming and open congregation

I do not understand your dislike or hatred for mainline churches as a whole.