Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Jaebius]

I am perplexed ..... first ... the patient has initiated and put forth a request for assisted suicide (this is a requirement already determined by the supreme court) .
If that patient is requesting that a spiritual counsel be on the panel does it not then follow that the spiritual leader would be supportive?? If not .... then there would be quite a question as to why the patient would want someone opposing their request.

I imagine it's possible for people in at least the major religions to find at at least one leader within their faith group who would be supportive.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Fair enough but we need to avoid stacking this panel with too many voices or we'll have patients suffering for months while the panel debates. Adding one more to John's proposal also makes it an even number, raising the possibility of a patient being denied a right not because the panel rejected their claim but because of a "hung jury". Though I would hope that panel decisions would be based on consensus, not a simple vote.

You know what - if that prevents even one person who might've regretted their decision from dying, it's necessary. Especially in cases of non terminal conditions. Terminal conditions maybe should be decided differently.

 

[RitaTG]

Okay. So it is more analogous to trans persons requesting to die because they are trans (which is very sad), let's say, and how that affects how those wanting to live and be equal are seen, and how they are influenced to see themselves.

Correct .....
Once again .. just because my friend could not stand it anymore in no way devalues my perception of my worth.
As a community .... the struggle is very personal and what another trans person happens to think of themselves is not the major influence at all.
A far bigger concern is the equality that society extends to us. I would expect that it is rather the same in the disabled community.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Correct .....
Once again .. just because my friend could not stand it anymore in no way devalues my perception of my worth.
As a community .... the struggle is very personal and what another trans person happens to think of themselves is not the major influence at all.
A far bigger concern is the equality that society extends to us. I would expect that it is rather the same in the disabled community.

Yes. But suppose being trans became an acceptable reason for mental and or physical suffering that would lead a doctor (or three) to determine it is okay to perform assisted suicide? That would be an outrage.

 

[RitaTG]

I would say that the voting members be a mandatory panel of experts as laid out by Rev John.
Others as requested by the patient would have standing to present before the panel entrusted with making the determination to grant the request.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I would say that the voting members be a mandatory panel of experts as laid out by Rev John.
Others as requested by the patient would have standing to present before the panel entrusted with making the determination to grant the request.

Was that to me?

 

[Jaebius]

I am comfortable having a psychiatrist assess me and my mental health. I don't think that should be all that surprising to anyone. As for my spiritual life I'm not aware that it is in any particular disarray at the moment. Nor do I think that if I chose, in the face of a terminal illness, to seek the help of a physician to end my life that it would reflect any actual spiritual crisis.

I'm not suggesting that anyone would necessarily be in a state of spiritual crisis. There are always spiritual considerations no matter what season of life a person may be at. It's important to see patients as being complete individuals. It would be a mistake to attempt to exclude the spirituality of the faithful. It's at least as vital to their lives as their physicality and mentality.

Would you give that religious leader veto power? If all of the medical professionals agreed that the patient requesting a physician assisted death was competent to do so would you permit the religious leader to forbid it?

The only person who should have the power to put a stop to a requested assisted suicide is the patient - and they must have that power.

I think that people of faith should be talking with their religious leaders long before they turn to their GP's with such a request.

And I feel that people of faith should be talking with their religious leaders beforehand - and all the way through the process.

 

[Jaebius]

I would say that the voting members be a mandatory panel of experts as laid out by Rev John.
Others as requested by the patient would have standing to present before the panel entrusted with making the determination to grant the request.

Well - we disagree on that one then. I feel that at the patient's request the "others" should be on the panel.

 

[RitaTG]

Yes. But suppose being trans became an acceptable reason for mental and or physical suffering that would lead a doctor (or three) to determine it is okay to perform assisted suicide? That would be an outrage.

Under the supreme court ruling ... being trans could not qualify as a condition....
Were that so then being Caucasian would be an equally applicable condition

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

God I hope more than doctors would be on such a panel! Very important seeing as disability is more than diagnosis and symptoms!

 

[RitaTG]

Was that to me?

Directed to Jae's comments....

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Under the supreme court ruling ... being trans could not qualify as a condition....
Were that so then being Caucasian would be an equally applicable condition

Exactly. I'm saying try to make the analogy. It's the same thing. Disability is like race and gender to the disability rights community.

 

[RitaTG]

Kimmo .... then sit in on the discussions as the new law is crafted ..... that is the time and place to put that forward.
For certain things I apply to make submissions to government committees that are drafting legislation.
In fact I am currently doing that......
Your viewpoint and input would be valuable.

 

[RitaTG]

Exactly. I'm saying try to make the analogy. It's the same thing. Disability is like race and gender to the disability rights community.

We disagree ....

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

And...that is ableism. There is no disagreeing to that definition, only prejudice. Sorry Rita but it is the same thing.

 

[Lastpointe]

God I hope more than doctors would be on such a panel! Very important seeing as disability is more than diagnosis and symptoms!

I think it depends on what the "panel" would be deciding. Again, t hey are not assessing the persons disability but their terminal disease which is causing them unbearable pain and the wish to end their suffering


If a patient has asked for doctor assisted suicide the first order would be to clarify if they meet the criteria

Criteria of terminal illness. Best decided by physician expert in the particular disease.

Criteria of overwhelming pain. Best determined by pain specialist. Most of those are docs but i do know a nurse practicioner specialist. I dont know of anyone else ,as you need to be able to order meds

Criteria of mental competence and no coercion. Best determined by a pyschiatrist along with testimony from family and any other care givers involved in care. Can see nurses, aides, social workers, ministers adding to level of understanding.


Determination of alternatives, ie better pain care, nerve blocks, need to be considered


In my experience, a complex patient in hospital has a care team, a care plan, regular family meetings to look at outcomes, options. These documents, as well as notes from others would form a reliable assessment of patient.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think it depends on what the "panel" would be deciding. Again, t hey are not assessing the persons disability but their terminal disease which is causing them unbearable pain and the wish to end their suffering


If a patient has asked for doctor assisted suicide the first order would be to clarify if they meet the criteria

Criteria of terminal illness. Best decided by physician expert in the particular disease.

Criteria of overwhelming pain. Best determined by pain specialist. Most of those are docs but i do know a nurse practicioner specialist. I dont know of anyone else ,as you need to be able to order meds

Criteria of mental competence and no coercion. Best determined by a pyschiatrist along with testimony from family and any other care givers involved in care. Can see nurses, aides, social workers, ministers adding to level of understanding.


Determination of alternatives, ie better pain care, nerve blocks, need to be considered


In my experience, a complex patient in hospital has a care team, a care plan, regular family meetings to look at outcomes, options. These documents, as well as notes from others would form a reliable assessment of patient.

The Supreme Court did not specify terminal disease. If they did you wouldn't be hearing such strong argument from me.

 

[RitaTG]

And...that is ableism. There is no disagreeing to that definition, only prejudice. Sorry Rita but it is the same thing.

No .... that is disagreeing Kimmo ....

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Rita no. You are wrong. Difficult to believe I would need to explain it to you. Disappointing.

 

[Mendalla]

The Supreme Court did not specify terminal disease. If they did you wouldn't be hearing such strong argument from me.

You do have a point there, though that could be the legal definition of "grievous", assuming there is legal precedent defining that term (precedent counts for as much as legislation in our court system). If not, then it can be defined as such in legislation and, IMHO, should be. Though even "terminal" is subject to debate. Someone once suggested that life is a terminal condition (i.e. ends in death) and, for some people, it is full of intolerable suffering (hence Buddhism).