Do you think that people have the right to employment?
Living with disability
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Perhaps as an alternate they could have right to UE (unemployment) not AI as they should be intelligent naturally ... but the population of earth appears to be naturally unthinking ... or overly emotional! It has been stressed by some religions ..."thou shalt not know the difference between right and wrong" ... many are hung on this belief ...
Yeah. I do think so. And also to unemployment as LuceNDs says.
Lastpointe
Well-Known Member
Kimmio, you mentioned a man, perhaps friend, i have forgotten, who wants to teach but cant get work after a year with an emplyment agency.
Sadly, he will join the tens of thousands of underemployed or unemployed teachers. People need to stop going to teachers colleges until they figure out the need and how to get retired teachers to stop teaching and open up the jobs to young grads. I doubt he will find work as a teacher any time soon. I know many kids trying to get jobs.
Getting a professional job is hard now. My, wi a masters, did free internships for two years while he worked with a job search team trying to find employed work. It is not easy. He kept reading reports how the boomers were starting to retire and there wasgoing to be the big opportunity. His response. " so retire already..."
Sadly, he will join the tens of thousands of underemployed or unemployed teachers. People need to stop going to teachers colleges until they figure out the need and how to get retired teachers to stop teaching and open up the jobs to young grads. I doubt he will find work as a teacher any time soon. I know many kids trying to get jobs.
Getting a professional job is hard now. My, wi a masters, did free internships for two years while he worked with a job search team trying to find employed work. It is not easy. He kept reading reports how the boomers were starting to retire and there wasgoing to be the big opportunity. His response. " so retire already..."
That was a hypothetical scenario I was using to illustrate a point. I don't know such a man at the moment. I picked "teacher" randomly as a field.
Yeah I know youth are having a hard time because boomers aren't retiring and making room for them. A big problem. But also the retirement age was bumped up a year, right? That's one year longer for college/ university grads to wait.
The thing is that people with disabilities' prospects are even worse throughout working age life. And it shouldn't, in the interest of equality, be a situation of let's get the kids good jobs first and PWDs can compete for what's left over.
Tabitha
journeying
HELLO-try not to judge other people's choices.
The young man I spoke of enjoyed his work. He maintained the lab-much different than managing it.He was paid the same as anyone in this unionized position. He rode his bike to work when weather allowed. He loved his interactions with a new group of OT?PT and Medical students yearly.
At Edmonton Public schools S. was employed 3 days a week in our office of consultants. She had mobility challenges and a cognitive delay and was visually impaired. Her job was photocopying and shredding. Very helpful-we ordered our copying by filling out a form-that was in large print. She started off with a job coach and moved to doing the job independently.
Sherwood Park Theatre employs a stage hand with down syndrome.
R has spina bifida yet worked in a government office-EI office. He drove with hand controls.
I think rather than handouts we should be looking at ways to reduce barriers to employment.
What skills are needed and what are we teaching at school? are we creating independence or dependence?
So Kimmio-you take days off work when it is too slippery for you to safely walk to bus-yet you refuse taxi vouchers that are available and would eliminate this problem? Not sure if your city buses are compatible with scooter? Ours are. A scooter would solve this problem as well.
The young man I spoke of enjoyed his work. He maintained the lab-much different than managing it.He was paid the same as anyone in this unionized position. He rode his bike to work when weather allowed. He loved his interactions with a new group of OT?PT and Medical students yearly.
At Edmonton Public schools S. was employed 3 days a week in our office of consultants. She had mobility challenges and a cognitive delay and was visually impaired. Her job was photocopying and shredding. Very helpful-we ordered our copying by filling out a form-that was in large print. She started off with a job coach and moved to doing the job independently.
Sherwood Park Theatre employs a stage hand with down syndrome.
R has spina bifida yet worked in a government office-EI office. He drove with hand controls.
I think rather than handouts we should be looking at ways to reduce barriers to employment.
What skills are needed and what are we teaching at school? are we creating independence or dependence?
So Kimmio-you take days off work when it is too slippery for you to safely walk to bus-yet you refuse taxi vouchers that are available and would eliminate this problem? Not sure if your city buses are compatible with scooter? Ours are. A scooter would solve this problem as well.
DaisyJane
I probably should be working.
Kimmio. I think you need to be careful about stepping in to someone else's shoes and deciding whether the job is something they value or enjoy. It is also a huge leap to assume that we are handing all the undesirable jobs to people with developmental disabilities. Perhaps this individual valued the job and found the work meaningful. Perhaps it was an excellent use of his skill set. Perhaps he was fascinated by anatomy. We don't know and it is unfair to speak for him.
When I was a young university student I worked in a nursing home. One of my job duties was to wash the bodies of people who had passed away during my shift and prepare the body for the arrival of the funeral home professionals. I suppose you could suggest that it was the sort of job that no one would want. But, I was happy to be earning money to pay for school. And, I was happy, and even proud, to be part of helping support a dignified death, and preparing a body for a family to view their loved one. I actually found that part of my job meaningful.
When I was an OT student we studied in the cadaver labs weekly. There were rigorous rules about professionalism in the lab. One student made an inappropriate comment about a body's genitals and was warned that if she ever spoke in a derogatory fashion about a body again she would be kicked out of the lab for the entire course. Being kicked out of the lab ensured you would fail. It was a very serious consequence. This young man who manages and maintains the lab has a very important job. He is part of maintaining and upholding the decorum and strict rules of a highly professional lab. Not such a joe job in my opinion. Perhaps you shouldn't jump to such quick conclusions.
Not a joe job. An unpleasant one. Granted, maybe he liked it who knows? But was he paid exactly the same as an able bodied person, is what I'd like to know?
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
Kimmio talks but doesn't listen.
Fair enough. I apologize for missing Tabitha's reply. I am glad he got paid decently.
Did you know that companies and institutions have been known to create special programs to serve a marginalized groups but pay them less than other workers. A bank had a program like that for people with disabilities to work as tellers but got less than "regular" tellers. I guess they couln't afford the full wage but PwDs had to accept it and be grateful (sarcasm). At least they have a job?beggars shouldn't 't be choosers. Is the common response. I asked because people with developmental disabilities in customized work experience programs - do not always get paid much if they get paid. A stipend sometimes.
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Lastpointe
Well-Known Member
I think to judge thefairness of something like you suggest i would need to know more about the program.
For instance, my son has done two years of interships, unpaid work, which is supposed to have given him experrience.
So if the program was intended to give experience then it is similar to the unpaid interships that abound now.
Or if the employee is only doing a fraction of the work due to their disability then i can see how they might not get paid the same.
Possibly
It would depend for me on what the purpose and structure is.
If a person is hired through a government program to work as a teller. And they do exactly the same job, handle the same number of customers and responsibilites then they should get paid the same. Unless it is strictly a training program. Perhaps.
The details are important.
That said i hate this idea of unpaid internships.
But i do see the purpose of graduated pay. A new hire might not get the salary of an experienced worker during their training or probationary period. Perhaps
For instance, my son has done two years of interships, unpaid work, which is supposed to have given him experrience.
So if the program was intended to give experience then it is similar to the unpaid interships that abound now.
Or if the employee is only doing a fraction of the work due to their disability then i can see how they might not get paid the same.
Possibly
It would depend for me on what the purpose and structure is.
If a person is hired through a government program to work as a teller. And they do exactly the same job, handle the same number of customers and responsibilites then they should get paid the same. Unless it is strictly a training program. Perhaps.
The details are important.
That said i hate this idea of unpaid internships.
But i do see the purpose of graduated pay. A new hire might not get the salary of an experienced worker during their training or probationary period. Perhaps
I saw it a lot from a PWD perspective in employment services. I think everyone should have enough to live on. And on a bell curve idea - proportional to disadvantage people should not be punished into accepting less. I don't think disability programs should be connected to the welfare system. Welfare is a temporary crisis support of last resort and disability supports are different - but both groups get lumped into a sort of social deviant category and PWDs often - I've seen it - internalize this as being worth less. Or they are afraid to get a job and lose other supports like bus passes, or assistive equipment, etc because the jobs don't pay enough. I think an empathetic solution is needed.
DaisyJane
I probably should be working.
I agree with you Kimmio. There are lots of systemic problems associated with people with disabilities who wish to work. For example, contract work. I know many people with disabilities who would love to work full, or part-time, and have the skills to secure a good job. The problem is that contract work, (popular these days) while a problem for most people, can place people with disabilities who may have greater need for things like medical benefits, at greater risk. I know a woman with a MSc who has much to offer and has had to decline numerous job offers. Losing her disability pension was something she could handle. It was losing the other benefits like dental, medical, and so on, that created many challenges.
I also agree with the idea that anybody, whether they have a disability or not, can internalize a message of being worth less when that is communicated via a variety of ways - such as pay. For example, I have a couple of health science degrees, and at one point in my life was a regulated health professional. However once I became Matthew's mother any knowledge and experience I might have had was often immediately dismissed because I was "just the mom". I know there are times that I have certainly felt disempowered, voiceless, insignificant, and even lacking in knowledge (even when I was not) simply because I have heard the message so often that once I became the mother of a special needs child all the other parts of me were ignored.
Your point about poverty and disability often being synonymous is also a good one. There is a fair bit of research that supports that people with disabilities are much more likely to be poor. Poverty itself then brings with it all sorts of challenges that are not necessarily associated with the disability.
I also agree with the idea that anybody, whether they have a disability or not, can internalize a message of being worth less when that is communicated via a variety of ways - such as pay. For example, I have a couple of health science degrees, and at one point in my life was a regulated health professional. However once I became Matthew's mother any knowledge and experience I might have had was often immediately dismissed because I was "just the mom". I know there are times that I have certainly felt disempowered, voiceless, insignificant, and even lacking in knowledge (even when I was not) simply because I have heard the message so often that once I became the mother of a special needs child all the other parts of me were ignored.
Your point about poverty and disability often being synonymous is also a good one. There is a fair bit of research that supports that people with disabilities are much more likely to be poor. Poverty itself then brings with it all sorts of challenges that are not necessarily associated with the disability.
KayTheCurler
Well-Known Member
Locally there are quite a few people with 'disabilities' earning their own pay cheques by doing worthwhile jobs. Being sight impaired doesn't inhibit spoken communication. Having autism doesn't prevent working in a back room where responding to random customers isn't required. Down's syndrome doesn't prevent someone from bussing tables etc etc etc.
My belief is that we each have strengths and weaknesses and for many of us there is a job. First we need to see the assets each person has and move on from there.
Does society 'owe' everyone a decently paid job? Not in my opinion. Both abled and disabled members of the work force can have lousy attitudes, for example. Most employers don't want a grouch or a whiner on staff!
My belief is that we each have strengths and weaknesses and for many of us there is a job. First we need to see the assets each person has and move on from there.
Does society 'owe' everyone a decently paid job? Not in my opinion. Both abled and disabled members of the work force can have lousy attitudes, for example. Most employers don't want a grouch or a whiner on staff!
Actually they are not available to me - i think it's the same as a bus puss criteria - and the ferry - because I am not on social assistance disability, and as a low income worker I do not qualify. I would have to quit my job, apply for PWD income assistance, and then if I qualified I could keep a certain amount of earnings - but it's a demeaning system to be stuck in. That's ridiculous, IMO.There is nothing for PWDs who are low income and not receiving disability. I am not on CPP disability but I don't think it qualifies for a bus pass either. Not sure about taxi discount. So if I would rather just work and not rely on any income from the government I am stuck. Makes no sense but that's the way it is.
As for a scooter. I hope not for a few more years. I have been having a lot of anxiety/ depression/ muscle tightness and balance issues all tied together. My new doctor seems great so far and we are going to tackle the depression stuff along with physio referral at a rehab outpatient place for the physical stuff, in tandem. But I only just got started.
I agree with everything except one bone to pick - the external barriers are part of what makes disability dis-abling. It is not just a medical impairment in my view - the definition I subscribe to. They can impact the impairment (say you can't afford to live in a building that's easily accessible or is on a hill or there's stairs to the laundry or you need to go to a laundromat - extra energy used and time consuming and much more difficult on person with a disability physically - impacts health, etc takes up time for other things)
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But maybe you'd turn into a whiner too if you 'd had a lot of discrimination to always put up with - even the subtle stuff. It gets felt and often internalized. I can empathize.
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DaisyJane
I probably should be working.
Kay. You ask a really good question - whether we "owe" anyone a decently paid job. I too, know many people with disabilities who are well employed. I do wonder if people with disabilities (and other minorities to be fair) are more vulnerable to specific trends in the workforce - such as contract employment without benefits. For example, as an able-bodied woman in good health I have few needs for extended health benefits beyond dental and eyeglasses. However, once I became Matthew's mother our need for health benefits exploded. Without medical benefits many families, or people with disabilities, cannot afford to be off government supported benefits simply because they become responsible for very high costs the "typical" family or individual does not need to manage. Many have argued that a better approach might be to allow people who meet a certain threshold of medical need to be employed but retain specific government supported benefits. This would allow people with disabilities access to meaningful work where they make a contribution to our society, including paying taxes, but retain the specific government funding they might need to keep them on more equal financial footing. In short, their disability does play a disadvantage in their ability to accept specific types of employment, and maintaining benefits would be a strategy to address the inequality.
Just to give you a sense of the costs (bearing in mind ours are high because Matthew is so high needs). Matthew's wheelchair cost OVER $32,000. His drugs and g-tube formula exceed $40,000 a year. His feeding tube hardware (syringes, tubing, feed bags) costs are about $2500 annually. His diaper/incontinence costs probably run closer to about $4000 annually. His nursing costs easily exceed $100,000 annually. While nursing and support worker costs are often covered by government benefits, and wheelchairs are funded up to %75, huge chunks of the other costs are only covered via health care benefits - and wipe many people out financially. Many people with disabilities remain on ODSP who could work simply because they bear huge medical costs not typical for people without disabilities and by going off ODSP they lose other benefits.