I don't vaccinate my child because it's my right to determine which diseases come back
- Thread starter chansen
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What's the question?
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I have a B.Eng. in Civil. By your standards, I'm overqualified to comment on vaccines.
Lastpointe
Well-Known Member
Lol.
Here I come with my BRE in General Ministries, ready to join the medical roundtable.
Ritafee
Is Being Human
When I shared this article to my own facebook status ...
Did 2014 Mark the Collapse of the Vaccine Establishment? -
Within 5 minutes I got a clarifying 'without mocking' response from a dear relative of my own
... no titles/labels/credentials to speak of unless you want to count 'transitioning' so S/he and Me will be the labels attached to the comments
February 5 at 2:23pm
S/he: To the title question, probably not. This article is not very reliable or honest. I wouldn't count on its predictions or perception of trends.
February 5 at 3 pm
Me: How does one determine reliability or dishonesty when drawn into the social debate ... I am not a scientist ... I am a person that does not agree with 'mandatory vaccination legislation'... Do you feel that it is irresponsible for me to post this article? ... I respect your opinion and thank you for commenting in the first place
February 5 at 3:13pm
S/he: I have mixed feelings on mandatory vaccination policy myself. In this case, the article is long and packs in many different thoughts, so it gets hard to evaluate the whole thing. In some cases, it's drawing implications or conclusions which aren't supported by anything. Following the 'money' trail triggers people's cynicism about big businesses, but the reality is lobbying, corruption and 'money trails' exist even with products which legitimately work. You could say you followed the money trails on oil, but this doesn't alter the fact that oil works as an energy source. Where the oil industry does try to quiet dissent on things like environmental impacts, there is no shortage of dissenting scientists.
February 5 at 3:16pm
S/he: Another strange conclusion is on whistleblowers. The article talks about how there are few within federal health organizations, and then leans on the idea that whistleblowers are just being persecuted. The problem here is if those health organizations are on the level, you'd get the exact same result; there would be few whistleblowers, and some of those which did exist would be discredited.
February 5 at 3:24pm
S/he: When it comes to claims of numbers and reports, it gets trickier. Some of the information revealed really isn't secret or anything, but it requires context. For instance, it's useless to know that more people who were vaccinated contracted a disease than those who were not. Imagine a vaccine is 90% effective and 95% of the population is vaccinated. There are 200 people in this hypothetical population and lets say everyone who can get infected does. In that scenario 19 of the infected are vaccinated compared to 10 infected who were not vaccinated. Sounds bad for vaccination on the surface, but expressed as a rate of infection 10% of the vaccinated were infected while 100% of the unvaccinated were infected. Spells out a bit of a different story. That's a bit oversimplified, but the point is, without knowing rates, it's useless to know if more or less of one camp was infected. It's known and openly stated that vaccinations are imperfect, and it's also known that some people, for health reasons cannot or should not be vaccinated. That's the who reason there is such a big push to have everyone covered; the more people with immunity you have, the less chance you have of people without immunity being exposed.
February 5 at 3:30pm
S/he:There are further issues, but I'll leave it there. I don't think it's irresponsible to post articles one way or the other, provided people are open to discussion. Vaccination is not a perfect practice, and I won't pretend I have all the right information. I just find a lot of anti-vaccination materials are... creative with presenting arguments.
February 5 at 3:32pm
Me: @S/he ... thanks
So you see ... I am not here to play games of one-up-manship on citing and mocking and labeling ... I am here because I really want to be able to have discussions with the assumption that I will not be mocked discredited and ignored ... when I make a correlation between the unsafe drinking water and conditions of poverty contributing to disease ... ignored. When I pose the questions ... if there is not enough evidence to dispute the mandatory vaccinations ... why bother to cover up the questions that have arisen? Bottom line ... I do not agree with "mandatory" vaccination ... that is my stand ... and as far as the labels that kimmio tries to define for herself and others ... I will use the word 'crippled' not by physical or mental handicaps ... but by a government that refuses to 'uncripple' her and others financially.
Did 2014 Mark the Collapse of the Vaccine Establishment? -
Within 5 minutes I got a clarifying 'without mocking' response from a dear relative of my own
... no titles/labels/credentials to speak of unless you want to count 'transitioning' so S/he and Me will be the labels attached to the comments
February 5 at 2:23pm
S/he: To the title question, probably not. This article is not very reliable or honest. I wouldn't count on its predictions or perception of trends.
February 5 at 3 pm
Me: How does one determine reliability or dishonesty when drawn into the social debate ... I am not a scientist ... I am a person that does not agree with 'mandatory vaccination legislation'... Do you feel that it is irresponsible for me to post this article? ... I respect your opinion and thank you for commenting in the first place
February 5 at 3:13pm
S/he: I have mixed feelings on mandatory vaccination policy myself. In this case, the article is long and packs in many different thoughts, so it gets hard to evaluate the whole thing. In some cases, it's drawing implications or conclusions which aren't supported by anything. Following the 'money' trail triggers people's cynicism about big businesses, but the reality is lobbying, corruption and 'money trails' exist even with products which legitimately work. You could say you followed the money trails on oil, but this doesn't alter the fact that oil works as an energy source. Where the oil industry does try to quiet dissent on things like environmental impacts, there is no shortage of dissenting scientists.
February 5 at 3:16pm
S/he: Another strange conclusion is on whistleblowers. The article talks about how there are few within federal health organizations, and then leans on the idea that whistleblowers are just being persecuted. The problem here is if those health organizations are on the level, you'd get the exact same result; there would be few whistleblowers, and some of those which did exist would be discredited.
February 5 at 3:24pm
S/he: When it comes to claims of numbers and reports, it gets trickier. Some of the information revealed really isn't secret or anything, but it requires context. For instance, it's useless to know that more people who were vaccinated contracted a disease than those who were not. Imagine a vaccine is 90% effective and 95% of the population is vaccinated. There are 200 people in this hypothetical population and lets say everyone who can get infected does. In that scenario 19 of the infected are vaccinated compared to 10 infected who were not vaccinated. Sounds bad for vaccination on the surface, but expressed as a rate of infection 10% of the vaccinated were infected while 100% of the unvaccinated were infected. Spells out a bit of a different story. That's a bit oversimplified, but the point is, without knowing rates, it's useless to know if more or less of one camp was infected. It's known and openly stated that vaccinations are imperfect, and it's also known that some people, for health reasons cannot or should not be vaccinated. That's the who reason there is such a big push to have everyone covered; the more people with immunity you have, the less chance you have of people without immunity being exposed.
February 5 at 3:30pm
S/he:There are further issues, but I'll leave it there. I don't think it's irresponsible to post articles one way or the other, provided people are open to discussion. Vaccination is not a perfect practice, and I won't pretend I have all the right information. I just find a lot of anti-vaccination materials are... creative with presenting arguments.
February 5 at 3:32pm
Me: @S/he ... thanks
So you see ... I am not here to play games of one-up-manship on citing and mocking and labeling ... I am here because I really want to be able to have discussions with the assumption that I will not be mocked discredited and ignored ... when I make a correlation between the unsafe drinking water and conditions of poverty contributing to disease ... ignored. When I pose the questions ... if there is not enough evidence to dispute the mandatory vaccinations ... why bother to cover up the questions that have arisen? Bottom line ... I do not agree with "mandatory" vaccination ... that is my stand ... and as far as the labels that kimmio tries to define for herself and others ... I will use the word 'crippled' not by physical or mental handicaps ... but by a government that refuses to 'uncripple' her and others financially.
Motheroffive
Well-Known Member
I have done quite a bit of research to find out what effects the chicken pox vaccine might have with respect to shingles and didn't have any luck. It has been a while, mind you, so it's possible that new information is out there on this. Do you have a source, ChemGal?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
I have been awarded a Bachelor of Christian Studies and a Master of Divinity. Neither are intended to be medical degrees.
For whatever it might be worth I have sat on Hospital Ethics Committeess. It isn't often that exciting a service. We did implement a couple of policy changes around Advanced Health Care Directives and Brain Death Protocols.
For whatever it might be worth I have sat on Hospital Ethics Committeess. It isn't often that exciting a service. We did implement a couple of policy changes around Advanced Health Care Directives and Brain Death Protocols.
ChemGal
One with keen eye
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/p04-vari-eng.php#a9
The risk is lower with the vaccine than having chicken pox, but it's still there.
@UnDefinitive I agree that clean drinking water and poverty contribute to disease. I see this as separate to the issue of vaccines. I don't see anything that suggests the overwhelming majority of people benefit from vaccines for things like MMR, polio, tetanus and diptheria. I just don't see evidence from reputable sources - I'm not trying to discredit you, it's how I feel. I trust the medical establishment by in large - not to say I don't do my due diligence - I research every drug I put into my body. I will no more take medical advice from someone that does not have a degree in medicine (or an allied health field) than I will ask my family doctor to build a house for me. I will consider positions from chiropractors and maybe a nutritionist (but nutritionist only needs one year of education and that doesn't really sway me, to be honest) but I trust statistics and the regulatory system.
ChemGal
One with keen eye
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
A year?
Do you know what I need to do here to be a nutritionist?
I'm a nutritionist.
^Done. I've done more than most. I actually have a science background.
I think (a FB "friend" has just become one and based on her posts I understood that you had to fulfil certain educational requirements to be a registered nutritionist but the term itself is not regulated like the term dietician. (But dieticians and nutritionists don't tend to exist harmoniously it seems)
Ritafee
Is Being Human
@chansen ... I believe it is BetteTheRed that is suggesting that people without MD status are not to be taken seriously ... I have no use for titles period ... get over your titles ... experience and results, not license, are the measurements that I prefer ... just because someone has a Masters of Divinity does not make him the boss of the divine ... just because the titled Queen demands respect does not mean that she has earned it ... just because the titled prime minister can command a war on terrorism does not mean that he knows how to defend himself ... just because the titled president of the U.S. tells us that his children are vaccinated does not mean that they surely are or that he actually understands why he had them vaccinated in the first place ... just because you have a degree in whatever your letters stand for does not guarantee that you are employed as such ... and on an on ... we are all equal here are we not?
A family doctor could always have a hobby that they're as good at or interested in as their primary job. Maybe carpentry. Maybe something they did pre-med. Some of them are pretty good golfers. 
It doesn't take an MD to smell out medical naïveté ... as I discussed in another string theory about deep voids in wisdom. I found this with professional engineers I worked with and about as I attempted to get around repetitive mistakes that were defined in the institutionalized texts ... syntax's ... ne you become recognizant to prominent errs ... it starts to get ridiculous and one has to act that way to fit in (ie when in a brute domain do as the brutes do). This is power and majesty at its best when defeating humanity ... and god said we must die ... perhaps the deviates do something with the underlying remains to shove up flowers in the dark ... shadowy sprouts? Eros 've Charon ... and what goes round is vert*egos ... consummate sentience? That is omi*Nous to many that would rather humanity not think ... the hate of knowledge? Tis something to look into as shady ...
Inn the hairy ends one has an ironic crossover and the last become first and are heard by the grater ... that psyche that sieves out de stones ...
Isn't that devious ....
...
Sums attire... integral fabrication ... one has to know a bit of the wholly myth ...
... that's Harry's Hole in NFLD!
Isn't that devious ....
...Sums attire... integral fabrication ... one has to know a bit of the wholly myth ...
... that's Harry's Hole in NFLD!
revjohn
Well-Known Member
UnDefinitive said:
That is not what I take away from her comment. What I take away from her comment is that people offering medical advice who are not medical professionals should have that advice taken as a grain of salt primarily because medicine is not their area of expertise. Since it is not their area of expertise one can also expect that their experience in the field will also lag behind those who make their profession in the field.
UnDefinitive said:
Yes and no.
We are equal as individuals. Your one voice is no greater or smaller than my one voice.
Our experiences will start to put distance between us with respect to certain issues. I am the parent of a child on the Autism Spectrum of Disorders. That experience gives me an advantage in discussions about Autism. You will have experience that I don't in other matters, that experience gives you an advantage in discussion about those other matters. Our experiences may lag behind those who have actually made a profession in either issue. I do not pretend to know more about Autism than doctors who have actually studied the issue. I would put my knowledge of Autism up against Dr. Wakefield's because while he was trained as a doctor, he was not trained in any discipline related to the study of Autism. I wouldn't challenge him on anything related to digestive tract issues because that is precisely what he studied.
After that it comes down to the difference of opinion between parents of children on the Autism spectrum of disorders who attribute the onset of Autism to vaccinations and parents of children on the Autism spectrum of disorders who do not attribute the onset of Autism to vaccinations.
Most of both category are not doctors. While both have similar experiences with the chronology of onset both do not have a grasp on what is happening. Parents who attribute the onset of Autism to vaccinations are not simply wrong they are desperately and tragically wrong. They have no reason to believe the connection between vaccinations and Autism so why do they?
Because they are stuck in the blame game. Their child was normal and now their child is damaged. Somebody is responsible for that and if it isn't somebody other than the parent then it must be the parents themselves. So, believing that they wouldn't do anything so irresponsible they find a monster who is. It has nothing to do with the actual issue of Autism it has everything to do with pointing the finger and holding someone accountable.
At present there are no cures for Autism. None.
There are multiple ways in which the symptoms of Autism may be managed.
Those in the higher functioning end of the spectrum experience the most benefit from those various behavioural helps. Technology is helping us assist those who operate in the lower functioning end of the spectrum and to be perfectly candid. Those we pity in the lower functioning end of the spectrum may read and understand us far better than we imagined (search Amanda Baggs) and if that is the case many of us should be ashamed. Of course if we treated this particular communication disorder as if people simply didn't speak our language rather than people being developmentally delayed we'd probably be further along socially than we currently are.
Current actual research had identified certain genetic markers. My family has participated in that research it required no colonoscopies or lumbar punctures. Simple blood tests and cheek swabs have been enough. My children were involved in a sibling study which again looked at developmental progress among multi pregnancy families in which one or more children have been diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder.
My son is one of the 57% of individuals in the Autism Spectrum of Disorders who does not also have a digestive tract disorder so we have no experience with the whole diet issue. I stay out of those discussions until somebody makes the foolish claim that diet cured their child's Autism. The diet may have helped with some of their child's behaviours but their child isn't going to ditch that Autism Spectrum Disorder diagnosis just because you find a new bread for their sandwiches.
With respect to vaccinations and their efficiency. We only question that out of our relative affluence and the fact that these vaccinations have actually been doing the job they were designed to do. Familiarity breeds contempt and our relative affluence breeds contemptability. Here, where people are not dropping like flies to preventable diseases the ignorant believe that they have a right to their particular ignorance and that their right trumps societies right to protection.
There are solid, sound medical reasons why certain individuals cannot or should not be vaccinated. Apart from those solid and sound medical reasons for exemption from a vaccine regime there are no reasons why individuals should opt out apart from ignorance.
Again the presence of awards and damages does not prove that vaccinations are inherently dangerous and the numbers provided by those various bodies demonstrates that I have a greater chance of winning a lottery than I do being injured by any particular vaccination.
I don't particularly care how many sites you can dig up on the internet claiming that the MMR vaccine causes Autism. None of those sites demonstrates a functional awareness of what Autism actually is. All of them do, sadly, demonstrate the desperation of parents to point the blame for their child's diagnosis somewhere so that they can lay hold of victim status.
That isn't healthy and will not address their new reality.
Ritafee
Is Being Human
"It is a strange first-world irony that wealthier, better-educated parents are the ones reducing infant vaccination rates"
said Zahn"
If we are looking for blame I remain consistent ... Blame it on the Money! I am all for eradication of dis-ease ... the worst dis-ease on the planet is 'poverty' ... we have the 'vaccine' ... make that mandatory and I'm all in.
said Zahn"
If we are looking for blame I remain consistent ... Blame it on the Money! I am all for eradication of dis-ease ... the worst dis-ease on the planet is 'poverty' ... we have the 'vaccine' ... make that mandatory and I'm all in.
ChemGal
One with keen eye
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Very enlightening article, thanks, Chemgal.
Great summary:
"Finally, we need to emphasize to parents that parenting is not about them and their feelings. It’s about their children and THEIR health and well being. It’s one thing to decline to follow a medical recommendation. Most of us do that all the time. It’s another thing entirely to join groups defined by defiance, buy their products, and preach to others about your superiority in defying medical recommendations. That’s a sign of the need to bolster their own self-esteem, not their “education.”
We have to confront anti-vax parents where they live — in their egos. When refusing to vaccinate your children is widely viewed as selfish, irresponsible, and the hallmark of being UNeducated, anti-vax advocacy will lose its appeal."
Great summary:
"Finally, we need to emphasize to parents that parenting is not about them and their feelings. It’s about their children and THEIR health and well being. It’s one thing to decline to follow a medical recommendation. Most of us do that all the time. It’s another thing entirely to join groups defined by defiance, buy their products, and preach to others about your superiority in defying medical recommendations. That’s a sign of the need to bolster their own self-esteem, not their “education.”
We have to confront anti-vax parents where they live — in their egos. When refusing to vaccinate your children is widely viewed as selfish, irresponsible, and the hallmark of being UNeducated, anti-vax advocacy will lose its appeal."