I don't vaccinate my child because it's my right to determine which diseases come back

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We should be more familiar with word ... then we could become more contemptuous about how it is often used ... wrong leis?

That's a ring of flowers about the neck ... in case you get your head into the darker analogue!

Blossoming what ...?
 
This happens unless one learns strange expressions ... alien tongues that can multiply superfluously! Thus your can say : "so the chit flows as wee bits" ... or it goes on and on .... like a wha-bit-ole--- the void of mind according to CS Lewis .. it is profound shadow land!
 
UnDefinitive said:
This would suggest that there is substantive evidence that vaccines cause damage and this damage is much more than “imaginary”.
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Or not.

We presume that courts in these other nations operate under the same general principles as courts do in Canada.

We do know that an Italian family awarded the Bocca family damages of 174, 000 Euros. We also have heard it claimed that the Italian Ministry of Health has admitted that the MMR vaccine is responsible for causing Autism.

I personally have never seen the transcripts of that trial nor a translation of transcripts from that trial.

What we know as a result of investigation into the Bocca family's case is that the science presented before the courts was Andrew Wakefield's discredited study (it had yet to be formally discredited) and the testimony of Dr. Massimo Montinari who has published a book about MMR vaccines causing Autism and further claims to have a "cure" for Autism.

We also should remember that it was an Italian court which convicted six scientists for manslaughter in the wake of the 2009 L/aquila earthquake in spite of the evidence presented that such predictions are impossible.

Trusting an Italian court to rule on evidence is apparently an exercise in faith.

The ruling in favour of the Bocca family is under appeal.

But that is Italy.

What about the United States? What is going on there.

Well the Federal Government launched the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program in 1988 so it isn't breaking news.

At any rate the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program lumped all of the Autism/Vaccine cases into an omnibus trial and evaluated three test cases. Rather than one judge weighing the evidence a panel of three special masters was selected.

In each case the link between vaccination and autism was denied as was compensation. Further to that the court went on record as to how unimpressed they were by the evidence and experts supplied by the plaintiffs.

A second round of three test cases produced similar results.

As far as MMR vaccines causing Autism only an Italian court believes that and anyone who believes that Italian court has feces for brains.
 
There is a lot more controversy about vaccines other than the autism debate.

As far as measles is concerned. My mother had them, I had them, my children didn't have them. I was breast fed, so were my children. Those who had measles when they were younger have a natural immunity that keeps them immune from measles for life. Most children today in North America will not get the measles and they will count on the vaccine giving them immunity. This vaccine when first developed was supposed to have given them a lifetime of immunity, it doesn't. It now requires boosters and will probably include boosters as an adult. My grandchildren will not have a lifetime immunity to measles. They will be dependent on vaccines to protect them from measles. My question would be, is it better to be exposed to measles as most were before the age of 15? What is the percentage of those severely infected, including death, from measles pre vaccine (from the 1900's) to present after the introduction of the vaccine in North America? (I'm referring to first world countries for a reason)

Did measles decline because of better hygiene, better health care, vitamin A, pasteurized milk, etc.....? Is measles still a problem in third world countries for lack of the above?

Was measles actually declining in the United States prior to the introduction of the vaccine?
Are these graphs official? If not, where are the official ones?
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2...s-disease-vaccines-and-the-forgotten-history/

@Kimmio, my understanding about "herd protection" was it is a term that was used in the early 1900's to describe the protection that was offered to the population after so many had measles and thus had a lifetime immunity, therefore it protected those who hadn't, especially the young babies who were breastfed because the mothers (who had lifetime immunity from having measles) milk offered immunity for the first year.This is a critical period for very young children, today the vaccine cannot be given to babies, back then they were protected.
The term was then adopted in the 1960's to push for vaccinations, except it really doesn't apply. It is now used even today as a means to blame those who don't choose to vaccinate.
http://business.financialpost.com/2014/06/19/junk-science-week-vaccinating-the-herd/

Willing to listen to the both sides.......
 
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I read somewhere - I can't remember where and I wish I could and I really hope this is true - that the rise of autism coincides with the rise of vaccines but it coincides even more with the increase of organic foods... (so just because two things happen at the same time does not mean that they are correlated)
 
You should not infer from the painting below that the following type of s**t could actually happen
... can't be true if it is depicted by an Italian 'Court Rulers' Artist - Cristina Guggeri - Daily Duty

dailyyy-1050x551.jpg
@revjohn ... sorry, my mistake, the only sentence that I should have left in that 1st paragraph was this one "Canada is the only Group of Eight country, other than Russia, that has not created a vaccine damage compensation program" ... is the assumption then ... it is not necessary as there is no such thing as vaccine damage ?
Perhaps @chansen you could do the honors of dismissing the validity of the next paragraph ... Canadian parents cannot be forced to have their children vaccinated. Even when vaccine laws exist for entry into public schools (as in Ontario, Manitoba, and New Brunswick), exemptions are allowed for medical, religious, and philosophical reasons. VRAN’s website, http://vran.org, headlined “Your Child. Your Choice. Your Future”, is Canada’s only national independent online source of vaccine information; its excellent science-based articles have helped many parents in their struggle to make wise vaccine decisions.
 
UnDefinitive said:
Grace and peace to you and the rest of the herd as well
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As far as vaccines go the safety is in the midst of the herd. Going rogue puts one at risk of predators and these particular predators are never detected until will after they have struck.

As far as the link between MMR vaccines and Autism is concerned I trust Dr. Peter Szatmari over Dr. Andrew Wakefield simply because psychiatry is better equipped to understand Autism than is gastroenterology.

With respect to Autism I trust Szatmari's genetic epidemiology and genetic etiology studies much more than Wakefield's discredited gastroenterological farce.

If I was concerned about a digestive disorder then I would consult a gastorenterologist like Dr. Wakefield.
 
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UnDefinitive said:
@revjohn ... sorry, my mistake, the only sentence that I should have left in that 1st paragraph was this one "Canada is the only Group of Eight country, other than Russia, that has not created a vaccine damage compensation program" ... is the assumption then ... it is not necessary as there is no such thing as vaccine damage ?
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So far I have limited my comments to the Italian Court decision which conspiracists trumpet as proof that the MMR Vaccine causes Autism. The court proved no such thing. The court did rule in favour of the plaintiffs who contend that the MMR vaccine did cause their son's Autism.

No proof has been provided to demonstrate causality between the MMR vaccine and Autism. None. Wakefiled's paper citing causality should never have passed peer review.

As far as assumptions go I think that there are some factors in Canadian medicine that mitigate against the creation of a vaccine compensation program.

The first would be the actual incidence of damage. Relying only on American figures. Since the creation of the "Vaccine Court" in 1988 to December 2011 the total vaccine count in the US has been roughly 1.8 billion doses. Out of those 1.8 billion doses awards have been given to 2, 810 people. Quick math indicates that the incidence of damage linked to vaccination is too small for my calculator to process happily. Way less thant 0.0001 percent. Run the math yourself if you think I'm too stun to operate a calculator.

Canada's population being much smaller than that of the United States and operating on the same rate of incidence means it is quite possible that Canada has never experienced a single, proveable case of vaccine damage. Why create a court for something that rarely ever happens?

Of those 2, 810 proven cases of damage none were found in the MMR/Autism connection. None.

Which leads me to believe that the Italian Court didn't weigh the science around the link at all.

I've gone through VRAN's Autism section. National and independent it might be. Science based it certainly isn't.

The link between children diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum disorder and experiencing gastrointestinal disorders is not new. It is also not conclusive proof that the MMR Vaccine causes Autism. It makes sense that Wakefield, a gastroenterologist would be involved in studying the possibile links between Autism and digestive disorders. It is right down his alley. Sample sizes are on the slight side. One article cited points to 21 children on the Autism spectrum of disorders only 9 of which (43% my calculator can handle those numbers) claimed digestive disorder.

Each of these studies deals with the digestive disorder and its possible causes. None. Absolutely none make the claim that the MMR vaccine causes Autism.

The problem is that real research is actually being ignored and headlines are being sought.

Any real science on VRAN is not being compiled by individuals with any kind of scientific credentials. I don't claim to be a scientist at all. I do claim to be able to read a study.
 
Murphy's Law if possible it'll happen given an eternal stretch! How far is that in the abstract called mind?

It is not what mortal knows but what they don't know that'll kill "M" ...

Good God where did that come from ... somewhere internalized deeply? The profound 6---Mark Twain and it becomes a divine duo ... peculiar twinning of thought in the dark abstract ... or just a shady conception!
 
Then a mercury compound was once used as a preservative in vaccines ... but it will not preserve the mortal soul!

One should know B Eta ... that secondary upright as a sacred thing albeit inversed like a going emotion becomes thought!

Just plumb weird as fruit of a vine that wasn't appt-el become common ... like Jhon in the hommeo pathe (pate) thingy ... common intelligence in a domain where such a thing is eliminated by the wishes of gods? These be upheld characters like false 'Eros ...

What's Eros preceded by the apostrophic icon ... apostasy of gram-mere? O' the potential of metaphor in the words of kinds and other characters of great heights of ridiculousness ... when mankind knows little by desire of leaders. Is there many metaphors for leaders ... like exegete? Something we could gete in a weird grasp of psyche ... a phenomenon just out of this ghostly spiritual state of emotions ... ID'll pas!
 
revjohn said:
The first would be the actual incidence of damage. Relying only on American figures. Since the creation of the "Vaccine Court" in 1988 to December 2011 the total vaccine count in the US has been roughly 1.8 billion doses. Out of those 1.8 billion doses awards have been given to 2, 810 people. Quick math indicates that the incidence of damage linked to vaccination is too small for my calculator to process happily. Way less thant 0.0001 percent. Run the math yourself if you think I'm too stun to operate a calculator.

Canada's population being much smaller than that of the United States and operating on the same rate of incidence means it is quite possible that Canada has never experienced a single, proveable case of vaccine damage. Why create a court for something that rarely ever happens?
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I agree that the autism/vaccine link isn't a good reason to choose to not use the recommended vaccines.
I think that's 'lasting damage'. Most vaccines result in some form of temporary damage, it helps to activate the immune system activated. Usually it's just minor. I don't know what the vaccine court uses to define damage.

Proveable vaccine damage is difficult. Good scientists rarely use the word proves - it's why there are so many theories. When it's a single circumstance, it's really difficult to get good evidence. Most doctors who review what happened to me seem to think that it's likely that my symptoms were at the very least triggered by the vaccine, if not directly caused by it, but they can't prove it, or prove that something else caused it. I agree a court seems pointless.
 
I used to question the vaccine issue quite closely. At one point, before the pertussis vaccine issue was sorted, I opted out of the pertussis portion of the vaccine for one of my children but by the time my next child was due, the problem had been fixed. I was also concerned about mercury preservatives with my very youngest child and learned that BC had stopped using mercury-based preservatives children's vaccines.

The reason the flu shot wasn't as effective this year is because when they are developing it, they have to predict the strain(s) that will be in ascendance in the fall months in advance. Sometimes, they don't get it right.

In respect to other vaccines, aside from the complications leading to death, there are also some illnesses that have severe long-term effects. A member of my family has major hearing loss because he contracted the mumps as a teenager. Due to contracting chicken pox as a child, many people develop shingles in later life, which, speaking from experience, has earned its former nickname, the devil's whip. It is agony and can last forever, as is the case with me. The only way to get shingles (aka herpes zoster, aka varicella zoster) is to have previously had chicken pox. A woman I know lost most of her sight in one eye due to shingles. I wish they'd had the chicken pox vaccine when I was a child.

Did you know that, contrary to previously circulated information on shingles, it can break out more than once? When I found that out, I went to get the shingles vaccine, which is about 50% effective according to the information provided. Although I wish it had more protection, it does decrease my odds of getting it again and that's worth doing, in my book.

Don't get me wrong. I know that the pharmaceutical industry has got something of a poor track record in a number of areas and they should shoulder a lot of the responsibility for the lack of trust in their motives. However, the evidence is clear that vaccines reduce the risk of mortality (death) and morbidity (illness or development of chronic conditions). Reactions to vaccines (and yes, they do happen) are far, far fewer in number and severity than the consequences of the relevant disease.
 
Motheroffive said:
I used to question the vaccine issue quite closely. At one point, before the pertussis vaccine issue was sorted, I opted out of the pertussis portion of the vaccine for one of my children but by the time my next child was due, the problem had been fixed. I was also concerned about mercury preservatives with my very youngest child and learned that BC had stopped using mercury-based preservatives children's vaccines.

The reason the flu shot wasn't as effective this year is because when they are developing it, they have to predict the strain(s) that will be in ascendance in the fall months in advance. Sometimes, they don't get it right.

In respect to other vaccines, aside from the complications leading to death, there are also some illnesses that have severe long-term effects. A member of my family has major hearing loss because he contracted the mumps as a teenager. Due to contracting chicken pox as a child, many people develop shingles in later life, which, speaking from experience, has earned its former nickname, the devil's whip. It is agony and can last forever, as is the case with me. The only way to get shingles (aka herpes zoster, aka varicella zoster) is to have previously had chicken pox. A woman I know lost most of her sight in one eye due to shingles. I wish they'd had the chicken pox vaccine when I was a child.

Did you know that, contrary to previously circulated information on shingles, it can break out more than once? When I found that out, I went to get the shingles vaccine, which is about 50% effective according to the information provided. Although I wish it had more protection, it does decrease my odds of getting it again and that's worth doing, in my book.

Don't get me wrong. I know that the pharmaceutical industry has got something of a poor track record in a number of areas and they should shoulder a lot of the responsibility for the lack of trust in their motives. However, the evidence is clear that vaccines reduce the risk of mortality (death) and morbidity (illness or development of chronic conditions). Reactions to vaccines (and yes, they do happen) are far, far fewer in number and severity than the consequences of the relevant disease.
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I think it's also possible to get shingles after getting the chicken pox vaccine, as it's a live vaccine.
 
You are here: Home / About Vaccines / Vaccination: Basic Concerns / Children’s Health in Decline
Children’s Health in Decline
June 2012

North American children are now the most vaccinated on earth. Since 1980, Canadian vaccine schedules have more than doubled the types of vaccines given; for the first 18 months of life alone, public health authorities across Canada now recommend 32-41 (average 36) doses of thirteen to sixteen different vaccines. New Brunswick, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut start by injecting the first dose of Hepatitis B vaccine at birth; the rest of the country starts multiple injections/drops at two months.

It’s been declared that today’s children are the first generation whose parents will outlive them. Today, 10% of Canadian children have life threatening afflictions. In the last 25 years, concurrent with vaccine increase, there’ve been huge declines in children’s health in many categories:

  • Autism – increased about 200 times in the last fifteen years; at least 1/50 in USA
  • Over 27% of Canadian children fall short on at least one measure of physical, emotional or cognitive development when entering kindergarten.
  • Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) – 10%
  • Learning Disability – 1/6
  • Severe Mood Dysregulation (eg bipolar disorder) – 1/30
  • Ear Infections – 50% of Canadian 2-3 yr olds since birth
  • All types of Allergies – increased six times since 1980
  • Anaphylactic Food Allergies – doubled in the last decade
  • Allergic Eczema – 1/5
  • Asthma – 1/8 or more; 10% of Canadians 2-7 yrs old
  • Obesity – tripled since 1980; 25% of Canadian children overweight or obese
  • Juvenile Diabetes – more than 100% increase since 1980
 
Love this line in Vaccine Choice Canada's disclaimer

VCC said:
Opinions expressed should not be construed as medical advice.
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If not medical advice what is it? If it is about informing parents what is VCC informing parents about apart from medicine?
 
UnDefinitive said:
It’s been declared that today’s children are the first generation whose parents will outlive them.
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What the hell, UnDef? Declared by whom?

This is complete and utter garbage.


UnDefinitive said:
Today, 10% of Canadian children have life threatening afflictions. In the last 25 years, concurrent with vaccine increase, there’ve been huge declines in children’s health in many categories:

  • Autism – increased about 200 times in the last fifteen years; at least 1/50 in USA
  • Over 27% of Canadian children fall short on at least one measure of physical, emotional or cognitive development when entering kindergarten.
  • Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) – 10%
  • Learning Disability – 1/6
  • Severe Mood Dysregulation (eg bipolar disorder) – 1/30
  • Ear Infections – 50% of Canadian 2-3 yr olds since birth
  • All types of Allergies – increased six times since 1980
  • Anaphylactic Food Allergies – doubled in the last decade
  • Allergic Eczema – 1/5
  • Asthma – 1/8 or more; 10% of Canadians 2-7 yrs old
  • Obesity – tripled since 1980; 25% of Canadian children overweight or obese
  • Juvenile Diabetes – more than 100% increase since 1980
Click to expand...
A bunch of those are now being diagnosed more often. Others are a result of poor diet. Others were not measured 20 years ago. Others can be linked to lower air quality.

I mean, this is complete crap you're pasting to this site.

This is the same flat-earther-style stuff that most people can see through immediately. If there is anything in that list that gives anybody reason to pause, it's undermined by being in the same list as a series of obvious junk stats being thrown around to blame one potential change in the last few decades.

What you want to fight are the polluters, cheap corn-based sweeteners and snack foods, and parents who don't spend time with their kids. We have no definite answer for rises in autism rates, but it really doesn't look like vaccines are to blame.

Every time you stick a needle in you, you have a slight risk of infection or some form of complication, even if there is nothing in that needle. The minute risk associated with immunization is far better than risking the disease you're preventing, not to mention helping to eradicate so that infants don't get it. What you're basically saying is that, in the bottom of the ninth, with 2 out and runners on the corners, it is better to send 9-year-old Billy to the plate, instead of Jose Bautista, because Billy could conceivably get a hit, and Jose Bautista has been known to strike out before.

In almost everything we do, we play the odds. We assume a level of risk we find to be acceptable (or at least the best) alternative, multiple times a day. There are smart decisions, and there are stupid decisions. Sending Billy to the plate in a MLB game instead of Jose Bautista, even if Billy has been crushing little league pitching, is the stupid play, just like not getting immunized is the stupid play.
 
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