89 chapter project: Matthew

[blackbelt1961]

Verse 17 could still be about dietary laws, however. What is taken through the mouth, goes through the stomach and then gets eliminated certainly sounds like actual food to me.

.

It is actual food if you look at the characters of the religious leaders, they were interested in looking good, eating the right foods, sitting at the right places, but in their hearts they were evil, Jesus called them shiny on the outside but wolves are they within there hearts.

and Jesus called them out on it all the time, what you eat goes in you and is pooped out, but your heart! what is in it will come out of your mouth and manifested in your lives.

God does not care about our religious acts because they are fake, phoney intended to make ourselves look good and godly, God cares about the center of our being, our souls, that part which is eternal & true , the carnal, the flesh will become dust to the ground, like the food we poop out

 

[paradox3]

Can't believe we are talking about poop.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Can't believe we are talking about poop.

I like to bring biblical language into today's time , kind makes it more real

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I like to bring biblical language into today's time , kind makes it more real

Considering what humorous stuff (for want of another word) that comes out of your mouth, I can understand why you would. Lol.

 

[paradox3]

Summary: Matthew 17: 1 - 27

1. After 6 days, Jesus takes the brothers James & John and Peter up to a high mountain and becomes transfigured. His faces shines like the sun and his clothes become white as the light. Moses and Elijah appear. A voice comes out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well-pleased. Hear him!" (17:5, NKJ).

The disciples are afraid and Moses and Elijah leave. Jesus tells the disciples to tell no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead. Jesus equates John the Baptist with Elijah.

2. An epileptic is healed by Jesus. The disciples had been unable to heal him because their faith was insufficient. Faith like a mustard seed can move mountains. Prayer and fasting are required.

3. Jesus again predicts his death and resurrection.

4. Peter and Jesus pay their taxes. The money is found by casting into the sea, catching a fish and opening its mouth to discover a coin.

 

[paradox3]

Reflection: Matthew 17: 1 - 27

What to make of these stories? The transfiguration and the visit from Moses and Elijah? And the fish with the money in its mouth?

Do you believe them to be literally and historically true? Are they myth, metaphor or faith testimony? Does the nature of these stories really matter? They seem to be significant because they have popped up in an ongoing narrative about a teacher and miraculous healer.

So what are they telling us? The transfiguration can be seen as a story which demonstrates Jesus' nature.

I am not sure what to make of the fish who provides the means to pay taxes.

 

[Seeler]

Much like you I'm not sure what to make of the fish to help pay taxes. It seems to me that this might be one of the dangerous verses in the Bible; it can be so misused to mean that God will provide if we trusted him. We must not worry. If God doesn't provide – if disaster strikes, if we lose our home our freedom, our loved ones, there must be a reason. Perhaps God has other plans for us. Or more likely it is our fault in not trusting God enough – in not having enough faith. In other words blame the victim.

That doesn't tie in with my idea of a loving God. Rather it is a picture of the manipulative unpredictable God who interferes with minute details in a person's life.

 

[chansen]

What are your options at a moment like this? I suppose you can ignore it or compartmentalize it away, attempt to rationalize it as coming from another age, say the words have changed meaning, insist it is being taken out of context....what other options am I forgetting?

 

[paradox3]

Much like you I'm not sure what to make of the fish to help pay taxes. It seems to me that this might be one of the dangerous verses in the Bible; it can be so misused to mean that God will provide if we trusted him. We must not worry. If God doesn't provide – if disaster strikes, if we lose our home our freedom, our loved ones, there must be a reason. Perhaps God has other plans for us. Or more likely it is our fault in not trusting God enough – in not having enough faith. In other words blame the victim.

That doesn't tie in with my idea of a loving God. Rather it is a picture of the manipulative unpredictable God who interferes with minute details in a person's life.

Yes, the message could be that God will provide if we trust God to do this. I guess the earlier "ask and you will receive" passage might have been saying the same thing. There was some reaction to those verses on this thread.

"Ask and you will receive" is easier for me to interpret as belonging to the spiritual realm. The coin in the mouth of the fish just seems bizarre.

And I agree that the implication here is that it can be our fault for not trusting enough. Especially after the rebuke given to the disciples for not having enough faith to cure the epileptic. Interesting that Jesus seems to speak of faith as trust in God rather than a matter of belief.

 

[Jaebius]

Summary: Matthew 17: 1 - 27

1. After 6 days, Jesus takes the brothers James & John and Peter up to a high mountain and becomes transfigured. His faces shines like the sun and his clothes become white as the light. Moses and Elijah appear. A voice comes out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well-pleased. Hear him!" (17:5, NKJ).

The disciples are afraid and Moses and Elijah leave. Jesus tells the disciples to tell no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead. Jesus equates John the Baptist with Elijah.

2. An epileptic is healed by Jesus. The disciples had been unable to heal him because their faith was insufficient. Faith like a mustard seed can move mountains. Prayer and fasting are required.

3. Jesus again predicts his death and resurrection.

4. Peter and Jesus pay their taxes. The money is found by casting into the sea, catching a fish and opening its mouth to discover a coin.

A note on your 2. - the boy wasn't someone with epilepsy. Rather, he was someone who was demon possessed.

 

[paradox3]

What are your options at a moment like this? I suppose you can ignore it or compartmentalize it away, attempt to rationalize it as coming from another age, say the words have changed meaning, insist it is being taken out of context....what other options am I forgetting?

You are forgetting taking it as a metaphor.

But truthfully, I can't even come up with a metaphor for catching a fish with a coin in its mouth. Other than the "God will provide" angle. Even so, why on earth would the gospel writer need to come up with a story like this?

Oh, I guess the other option would be to say we need to pray for understanding.

 

[Jaebius]

Yes, the message could be that God will provide if we trust God to do this. I guess the earlier "ask and you will receive" passage might have been saying the same thing. There was some reaction to those verses on this thread.

"Ask and you will receive" is easier for me to interpret as belonging to the spiritual realm. The coin in the mouth of the fish just seems bizarre.

And I agree that the implication here is that it can be our fault for not trusting enough. Especially after the rebuke given to the disciples for not having enough faith to cure the epileptic. Interesting that Jesus seems to speak of faith as trust in God rather than a matter of belief.

A person with epilepsy, I much prefer the term, "person with epilepsy" to the word "epileptic" when describing a person.

 

[chansen]

You are forgetting taking it as a metaphor.

How could I forget that one?

But truthfully, I can't even come up with a metaphor for catching a fish with a coin in its mouth. Other than the "God will provide" angle. Even so, why on earth would the gospel writer need to come up with a story like this?

That's simple: If you're starting a scam, you need an excuse for when everything goes wrong. It can't be God's fault - it must be yours. This gives Christianity an out, and Christians will buy it because deep down they do have doubts. They should have doubts. There are so many reasons to doubt, and the founders of the scam could, in one stroke, explain away their failures and make you feel guilty for doubting them.

 

[paradox3]

A note on your 2. - the boy wasn't someone with epilepsy. Rather, he was someone who was demon possessed.

Both the NKJ and the NRSV suggest it was both, i.e. the boy was epileptic and had a demon.

Are you arguing that "the boy was epileptic" is different from describing him as "someone with epilepsy"?

 

[paradox3]

A person with epilepsy, I much prefer the term, "person with epilepsy" to the word "epileptic" when describing a person.

Yes, I understand this is your preference. It does not, however, change the words of the NKJ or the NRSV. You tried to tell me earlier that the boy was not someone with epilepsy.

 

[paradox3]

That's simple: If you're starting a scam, you need an excuse for when everything goes wrong. It can't be God's fault - it must be yours. This gives Christianity an out, and Christians will buy it because deep down they do have doubts. They should have doubts. There are so many reasons to doubt, and the founders of the scam could, in one stroke, explain away their failures and make you feel guilty for doubting them.

So the Bible as manipulation is your take on this one?

 

[paradox3]

And @Jae is telling us the stories are historically and literally true, if I am reading him correctly.

Polarized opinions like these ones certainly make things interesting around here!

 

[Jaebius]

Yes, I understand this is your preference. It does not, however, change the words of the NKJ or the NRSV. You tried to tell me earlier that the boy was not someone with epilepsy.

He didn't have epilepsy. He was demon-possessed.

 

[chansen]

He didn't have epilepsy. He was demon-possessed.

Jae isn't big on the idea that people with epilepsy are demon-possessed.

 

[Jaebius]

Jae isn't big on the idea that people with epilepsy are demon-possessed.

People with epilepsy, Jae believes, can be demon-possessed. What Jae isn't big on is the notion that epilepsy is demon-possession.