The Rev. Vosper Again

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The UCCan is not like any other leave-your-brain-at-the-door church. Figure out how to celebrate that.

Without losing the spiritual element that some of us, even those who aren't traditional theists, may be seeking. It's a balancing act and I'm not sure the UCCan as a denomination is going to be able to create that balance. All it can do is try to leave this stuff to the congregations to find the balance that is right for them. Yes, that's "creeping congregationalism" but this decision seems to be in favour of that, anyhow. At the very least it seems to be letting WHUC be WHUC.
 
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Without losing the spiritual element that some of us, even those who aren't traditional theists, may be seeking. It's a balancing act and I'm not sure the UCCan as a denomination is going to be able to create that balance. All it can do is try to leave this stuff to the congregations to find the balance that is right for them. Yes, that's "creeping congregationalism" but this decision seems to be in favour of that, anyhow. At the very least it seems to be letting WHUC be WHUC.
Agreed. It is to be hoped that WHUC will be willing to let the rest of the denomination be what it needs to be.
 
Maybe that's what Reverend Vosper gave up? Perhaps she is not to openly criticize the moderator or the church going forward. After all, it never really was about an atheist in the pulpit, but more about an atheist speaking up from the pulpit.
 
Maybe that's what Reverend Vosper gave up? Perhaps she is not to openly criticize the moderator or the church going forward. After all, it never really was about an atheist in the pulpit, but more about an atheist speaking up from the pulpit.

That would make sense. Doesn't limit her too much within the charge but avoids further incidents like the public criticism of the moderator's theistic prayer for Paris.
 
To my eyes it looks like the Denomination is attempting to distance itself from Toronto Conference. Incongruous, really, when you consider the hearing panel must have okayed the settlement between Gretta, WHUC & Conference.
Procedurally legal counsel at GCO likely had to sign off on it. THe Hearing Panel may not have had a role at all. Reaching an agreement rendered the need for the panel moot (albeit after they were scheduled to start -- and I presume they did start on Monday)
 
Actually, she's been extremely careful about the sacrament that matters to the larger church. She does not claim to baptize.
Which is in fact part of the practie of ministry issue. We are ordained to the ministry of Word Sacrament and PAstorla Care
 
Well that was a tap dance.

This is simply more "We're a Christian Church!" reassurances, without really addressing Rev. Vosper at all.
 
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That would make sense. Doesn't limit her too much within the charge but avoids further incidents like the public criticism of the moderator's theistic prayer for Paris.
Because, what a bunch of atheist cartoonists who have been shot by religious fanatics need, is prayer.

That statement was totally self-serving. It was to make believers feel better, it was not for the victims.
 
Well that was a tap dance.

This is simply more "We're a Christian Church!" reassurances, without really addressing Rev. Vosper at all.

It was a bit more than that. I will draw your attention to this line,

"we continue to expect that ministers in The United Church of Canada will offer their leadership in accordance with our shared and agreed upon statements of faith, celebrating the sacraments, and praying that all who are part of the denomination will help people to love, as Jesus put it, “God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” "

emphasis mine, and remembering the conversation about baptism. She does celebrate a communion type meal, but the second sacrament is baptism, and although she offers a "child claiming" ceremony, she does caution parents that it does not come accompanied by a baptismal certificate. I wonder if, as long as she refers the parents to the closest baptizing UCC congregation, that she's done her duty to the sacraments?
 
It was a bit more than that. I will draw your attention to this line,

"we continue to expect that ministers in The United Church of Canada will offer their leadership in accordance with our shared and agreed upon statements of faith, celebrating the sacraments, and praying that all who are part of the denomination will help people to love, as Jesus put it, “God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” "

emphasis mine, and remembering the conversation about baptism. She does celebrate a communion type meal, but the second sacrament is baptism, and although she offers a "child claiming" ceremony, she does caution parents that it does not come accompanied by a baptismal certificate. I wonder if, as long as she refers the parents to the closest baptizing UCC congregation, that she's done her duty to the sacraments?

I don't believe so because, the way I think of it, baptism is not only entrance into the kingdom of God but also entrance into a local church.
 
It was a bit more than that. I will draw your attention to this line,

"we continue to expect that ministers in The United Church of Canada will offer their leadership in accordance with our shared and agreed upon statements of faith, celebrating the sacraments, and praying that all who are part of the denomination will help people to love, as Jesus put it, “God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” "

emphasis mine, and remembering the conversation about baptism. She does celebrate a communion type meal, but the second sacrament is baptism, and although she offers a "child claiming" ceremony, she does caution parents that it does not come accompanied by a baptismal certificate. I wonder if, as long as she refers the parents to the closest baptizing UCC congregation, that she's done her duty to the sacraments?

I suspect Gretta would say she has done her duty. I disagree. But at the same time the governing body of WHUC has to wear some of that, because how/when the sacraments are celebrated in a UCCan congregation is under the purview of Session (or equivalent). I would also say that offering only a "communion type meal" means WHUC is not offering either sacrament.
 
I would also say that offering only a "communion type meal" means WHUC is not offering either sacrament.

Sure, but as I understand it, there's no rigid formula for the sacrament of communion, whereas, because of ecumenical agreements, ministers must use a clear trinitarian formula as part of the words spoken over the child. Is that a fairly accurate synopsis of the difference between the two?
 
Sure, but as I understand it, there's no rigid formula for the sacrament of communion, whereas, because of ecumenical agreements, ministers must use a clear trinitarian formula as part of the words spoken over the child. Is that a fairly accurate synopsis of the difference between the two?
Depends who you talk to. ANd what does WHUC mean by "communion type"? Does it include the words of institution? If not (and I have a hunch it would not) then it is not a Eucharistic meal by most definitions.

This excerpt from Celebrating God's Presence outlines what makes up a Communion Prayer/liturgy:

The prayer may begin with a Call to Give Thanks (Sursum Corda) or opening dialogue.

The body of the prayer opens with the Thanksgiving (Preface), offering thankful praise to God; some or all of the following thanksgivings may be included:
for God’s work in creation and in covenant history;
for the witness of the prophets;
for God’s steadfast love, even when people turn away;
for the gift of Christ;
for the immediate occasion or festival;
for contemporary causes for thanksgiving.

The Song of Creation (Sanctus and Benedictus) may be spoken or sung; musical settings are found in VU 932-944.

The prayer continues with a thankful remembering of the acts of salvation in Jesus Christ, such as:
Christ’s birth, life, and ministry;
Christ’s healing, teaching, and gifts of wholeness and life;
Christ’s death and resurrection;
Christ’s presence and the promise of his coming again;
the gift of the sacrament of Communion
(including Remembering Jesus at Table (Institution Narrative), if not used elsewhere).

A Prayer of Self-Giving (Anamnesis-Oblation) offers ourselves and our lives in faithful remembrance of Jesus’ self-giving and provides a transition from Remembering Jesus at Table to the Affirmation of Memory and Hope.

A communal Affirmation of Memory and Hope (Memorial Acclamation) may be said or sung. Music settings may be found at VU 932-944.

The prayer continues with a Prayer for Transformation (Epiclesis) by calling upon the Holy Spirit:
to bring all who share in the feast into Christ’s presence;
to make breaking of the bread and sharing of the cup
participation in the body and blood of Christ;
to make us one with the risen Christ, with all God’s people,
and with the communion of saints;
to nourish us with the body of Christ, so that, as Christ’s body, we may share ourselves,
as gifts to one another and the world;
to anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promised realm of shalom.

The prayer may include Remembering the Community (Intercessions), prayers of intercessions remembering particular people or concerns within the community or beyond.

The prayer concludes with Concluding Praise (Doxology), a unison Amen and the Prayer of Jesus (The Lord’s Prayer). Musical settings may be found in VU 932-944.

ANd this (from the same source) talks about the basis of COmmunion:
Throughout his ministry Jesus ate at table with friends, outcasts, and sinners. In his teachings he used the table as an image of inclusivity, hospitality, and God’s in-breaking reign. At his last supper with his followers he initiated the mystery of what we have come to call a sacrament—a sign of God’s grace. This ritual meal is a Christian development of Jewish Passover traditions and mealtime worship.

Empowered by their experience of the risen Christ, the early church met weekly for the proclamation of the Word and the breaking of bread. In the church of the third millennium we continue to enact the history and hopes of a people and God’s care and concern for the world.

The brokenness of our world is lifted up in the bread broken. The bloodshed of our world is remembered in the cup shared. In the gathered grain we are brought together and grounded in God’s good earth. In the fruit of the vine we are united with the groaning of all creation. We do this at table to remember our identity as a covenant people of God. We receive, and are sustained as, the body and blood of Christ. This is our eucharist, this is our thanksgiving.
 
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This excerpt from Celebrating God's Presence outlines what makes up a Communion Prayer/liturgy:

Is that required or recommended, though? I've been to some communions in UCCan churches that definitely didn't follow that pattern.
 
Is that required or recommended, though? I've been to some communions in UCCan churches that definitely didn't follow that pattern.

What does required mean??? ;) UCCan approach to liturgy is "Ordered Liturgy" which gives a great deal of freedom to the liturgist. However a communion liturgy that does not include things like the Institution Narrative and some recounting of the Christ story would be looked at as odd by many.
 
Sure, but as I understand it, there's no rigid formula for the sacrament of communion, whereas, because of ecumenical agreements, ministers must use a clear trinitarian formula as part of the words spoken over the child. Is that a fairly accurate synopsis of the difference between the two?
We have discussed the PLURA agreement on earlier occasions. Presbyterian, Lutheran, United Roman Catholic and Anglican churches in Canada thereby agree to recognize each other's baptisms with the proviso that the trinitarian formula is included.

Not sure about communion but I wonder why WHUC bothers with a "communion-type meal" if they are not actually celebrating communion. Why have it at all? That would be my question but that is just me.

At any rate, I suspect they are going to be left more to their own devices in the future after the agreement that has been crafted. I have also been wondering if we will be seeing fewer of those public pronouncements about the United Church by Gretta in the future. Time will tell.
 
Not sure about communion but I wonder why WHUC bothers with a "communion-type meal" if they are not actually celebrating communion. Why have it at all?

Communion-type meals are not just a Christian thing, though. Communal meals, ceremonial or real, exist in many traditions. The Jewish seder is a well-known one. Mitraism had a communal meal celebration very like communion. We UUs have "communion" rituals of various sorts. So I would counter with, "Why not have it?" It's a common practice across many traditions.

However a communion liturgy that does not include things like the Institution Narrative and some recounting of the Christ story would be looked at as odd by many.

Odd, sure, but if your church is really as diverse in its expression as is claimed, an oddity here and there shouldn't be a big deal, should it?
 
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