The Consequences of No Religion

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Because the first century carpenter was actually against religion. It was one of his most defining characteristics. His first miracle - water to wine - was one where he desecrated the religious vessels (meant for ceremonial hand washing) with the happy juice. It was his way of saying 'Give up your religiosity, and come; have a drink with me.

The uber religious were jealous, and truly believed they were doing God's work when they murdered him. Legalism destroys relationship.

Was Jesus a carpenter? (just another viewpoint)
http://www.kencollins.com/jesus/jesus-35.htm

Was He against religion?

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/church/features/29429-jesus-was-religious

By changing the water to wine and saving the best wine for last? Could this have represented a new covenant? Psalm 85:10

Just some other interpretations to put out there. :)
 
This is wildly off topic - I just want to say HI
Candy. I'm looking forward to hearing some more comments from you.
 
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In the association of Baptist churches that I'm in, retired pastors are not normally shuffled out of the churches they once led. Some will opt to go elsewhere, but many stay on as advisors, mentors and friends to the new pastor.
 
In the association of Baptist churches that I'm in, retired pastors are not normally shuffled out of the churches they once led. Some will opt to go elsewhere, but many stay on as advisors, mentors and friends to the new pastor.


Hi Pr. Jae- I was wondering Jae in each church do you feel the leader or Pastor should be lifted up . To a higher place than any church member?
 
Waterfall - I was surprised to hear you question whether Jesus was a carpenter. I checked your resource. I am not familiar with the author or the publication, but I disagree with his conclusions.
My understanding is that Jesus grew up in the household of Joseph and Mary in the village of Nazareth in the area of Galilee. His training and education would have been in the home and in the village synagogue. Joseph, his earthly father, was a carpenter (or handi-man or stone mason - a builder). No doubt, like other boys of his time, Jesus would have worked by his father's side from the time he was a toddler, moving from the 'pass me that hammer' to 'hold this steady' to learning the skills necessary to work side by side crafting, building, repairing. This would include math skills at measuring, calculating, etc. Yes, Jesus was a builder (carpenter).
He would also have learned the culture and religion of his people - first by the observances in the home, and later in the synagogue where he would have been taught, mainly by rote learning and memorizing, by the local rabbi. To be a rabbi at that time meant an individual respected for his wisdom and understanding and ability to pass on his knowledge - in other words, a teacher. One did not become a rabbi by formal training, but by the respect in which he was held. (I compare this to the many school teachers I knew just a couple of generations ago who taught in rural schools on a "local" or "second class" license - with little or no formal training.)
I believe that Jesus started his life as a carpenter and probably worked at it until he was about 30 -- while meeting with the village rabbi and any other visiting leaders, and making periodic visits to the temple in Jerusalem, discussing the law and the writings and the religious beliefs and practices of the time.
At about 30 he met John the Baptist, and possibly spent some time with him. Then, after a period of discernment in the desert he began what might be referred to as his 'second career' -- that of a itinerant teacher. One of the first places he visited was his home village of Nazareth where he visited the synagogue and, much like a a young man returning to his home church today and being invited to be a lay reader of scripture, Jesus was invited to read and then talk about the passage. This is where the questioning came in. The people remembered him as a carpenter. Even those who may have remembered him as a bright and gifted boy, were surprised at how well he did. They were amazed at his wisdom and his authority. And they rejected him.
But he continued on his way, preaching, teaching, healing. People followed him. Sooner or later they began to call him Rabbi. He hadd become a respected teacher -- and a threat to those in authority.

That is what I learned in Sunday School, and in reading and studying since then. I'm no authority. But I have no trouble believing the references the scriptures have of Jesus being referred to a carpenter, carpenter's son, workman, or rabbi. His followers seem to have included fishermen, tax collectors, tent makers, seamstresses, and others who also worked with their hands.
 
Hi Pr. Jae- I was wondering Jae in each church do you feel the leader or Pastor should be lifted up . To a higher place than any church member?

No. A true Christian leader will live life on a downward trajectory. He or she is to be the servant to all.
 
Was Jesus a carpenter?

Was He against religion?


It seems unlikely that Jesus was a mere craftsman. He was too well educated for that.

Throughout the history of human civilization, going right back to ancient Egypt, there was a secret initiatory organization calling themselves "Builders," "Carpenters," or "Masons." They were metaphorical builders, builders of civilized society, but sometimes they also practiced the craft after which they named themselves. The Freemasons are a modern day offshoot of this organization. Jesus the carpenter could have been a member of the "Society of Carpenters." And, similar to a Freemason being called a "mason," he was called a "carpenter."

Was he against religion?

He probably was against religion being abused as a political tool.
 
Was he against religion?

He probably was against religion being abused as a political tool.

This. And also the abuse of religion and religious law in particular to benefit the priests and other privileged classes (which kind of fits with/relates to what Hermann says). I don't see any real indication, though, that he was against religion in and of itself. He seems to have been more of a reformer who wanted to see religion done differently rather than one who wanted to do away with it altogether.
 
No. A true Christian leader will live life on a downward trajectory. He or she is to be the servant to all.

The president of the company where I work talks a lot about "servant leadership", a model he brings over from his very active involvement in the Presbyterian Church of Canada. He lives it very well, too. Very much not your stereotypical corporate autocrat.

In UU'ism, no minister or other leader can expect to be put on a pedestal. We are democratic almost to a fault and there is still an anti-clerical streak in some segments of our membership. Ministers in particular are guides, teachers, and advisors rather than wielders of power.
 
This. And also the abuse of religion and religious law in particular to benefit the priests and other privileged classes (which kind of fits with/relates to what Hermann says). I don't see any real indication, though, that he was against religion in and of itself. He seems to have been more of a reformer who wanted to see religion done differently rather than one who wanted to do away with it altogether.

Yes, sort of an early Martin Luther.

But reformation should not have ended with Jesus or Martin Luther. It should be an ongoing process, going on even as we speak -- and carried forward!

I think it does exactly that: We are modern day reformers.
 
It seems unlikely that Jesus was a mere craftsman. He was too well educated for that.

Throughout the history of human civilization, going right back to ancient Egypt, there was a secret initiatory organization calling themselves "Builders," "Carpenters," or "Masons." They were metaphorical builders, builders of civilized society, but sometimes they also practiced the craft after which they named themselves. The Freemasons are a modern day offshoot of this organization. Jesus the carpenter could have been a member of the "Society of Carpenters." And, similar to a Freemason being called a "mason," he was called a "carpenter."

Was he against religion?

He probably was against religion being abused as a political tool.

Although it appears that Jesus was thoughtful and intelligent and capable of quoting and interpreting scripture, I don't know of any evidence that shows he was 'too well educated' to work with his hands following his father's trade. In fact I don't know of any evidence that Jesus had any education - except perhaps the village school.
Intelligence does not mean education.
There is nothing wrong with working with your hands.
Jesus' closest friends were fishermen, and probably had little formal education.
Although Luke records that Jesus read in a public place on the Sabbath, there is no evidence (like Paul's letters) to indicate he ever wrote anything except a few words scratched with his finger in the ground.
 
Was Jesus a carpenter? (just another viewpoint)
http://www.kencollins.com/jesus/jesus-35.htm

Was He against religion?

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/church/features/29429-jesus-was-religious

By changing the water to wine and saving the best wine for last? Could this have represented a new covenant? Psalm 85:10

Just some other interpretations to put out there. :)

I watched a DVD last night called, "The Bible" by Discovery, which was about Jesus. He was a Tekton - which could've meant "stonemason" because he lived in a very baren desert area. But carpenter/ stonemason - why does that matter? The archeologists in the vid made a strong case that the area of Nazareth where he grew up - he would've been poor - and during harvest the whole community would've gone to the orchards/ farms and done day labour for farmers - hence his knowledge of agriculture in his parables.

I recommend the vid - lots of insight into what Jesus' life likely would've been like - the geography, demographics and politics of the time that would've influenced him.

As far as being a Rabbi -poor people used to gather in the streets, the public square, and listen to street preachers - and if they had something to say they learned to preach. Jesus wasn't unique in that regard but his message was exceptional.
 
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In UU'ism, no minister or other leader can expect to be put on a pedestal. We are democratic almost to a fault and there is still an anti-clerical streak in some segments of our membership. Ministers in particular are guides, teachers, and advisors rather than wielders of power.

It sounds like you UUs are thinking of leadership rightly.
 
Although it appears that Jesus was thoughtful and intelligent and capable of quoting and interpreting scripture, I don't know of any evidence that shows he was 'too well educated' to work with his hands following his father's trade. In fact I don't know of any evidence that Jesus had any education - except perhaps the village school.
Intelligence does not mean education.
There is nothing wrong with working with your hands.
Jesus' closest friends were fishermen, and probably had little formal education.
Although Luke records that Jesus read in a public place on the Sabbath, there is no evidence (like Paul's letters) to indicate he ever wrote anything except a few words scratched with his finger in the ground.

Well, seeler, there is not much evidence about any aspects of Jesus' life. The the books of the NT are not a historical documents or genuine historical biographies but pseudo biographies, meaning that they are more legend than accurate historical truth. Nevertheless, most historians agree that that Jesus existed. We just don't have much accurate historical information about him. We can only speculate.

No, there is nothing wrong with working with one's hands. I have done it all my life, but I also am reasonable well read and fully literate in two languages. This is not unusual for our day and age, but would have been unusual 2,000 years ago, when craftsmen were not usually learned people. That Jesus closest friends and disciples were formally uneducated fishermen is equally doubtful. Paul's Letters, five to seven of which have been authenticated as actually having been written by Paul, do not tell us much about the historical Jesus. They mainly speak of the "Christ" of Paul's invention.
 
Sometimes it's good to challenge some assumptions and look at things differently. just the other day I was reading it was more than likely that Jesus' disciples were mostly teenagers. Imagine that...suddenly I have a different image.
 
Sometimes it's good to challenge some assumptions and look at things differently. just the other day I was reading it was more than likely that Jesus' disciples were mostly teenagers. Imagine that...suddenly I have a different image.
From the Biblical record - which Hermann points out is not a historical document - we learn that Peter had a mother-in-law. That would indicate that at least one of the disciples (Peter) was old enough to be married.
I have always had the impression that Bartholomew/Nathanial (if they are the same person) was an older man (which may have been about 40 in first century Galilee).
There is very little to go by for the other disciples. John is usually portrayed as being younger than the others, and the last survivor. James and John's father was still living at the time they were called which might indicate that they were in their teens or early 20s.
 
The general population would've been young by today's standards. The archeologists in the video were saying that many babies died in childbirth (and women as young as 13 or 14 in those days), and only 50% of children made it to adulthood. The rest of the population that survived that far were subject to a high rate of illness and disease.
 
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