Liberal Christian denominations

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Yeah, I guess that’s a way to look at it. But I kind of think it’s more about content than branding. Branding seems to be one uniformly shared item. The signs outside all say “United Church”. The social justice views and faith beliefs inside might be all different from each other.

What’s “united” about them, to each other, more than what unites them to anywhere else?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Want an interesting birds-eye view of some of the diversity in the UCCan when it comes to clergy. We have a minister, a Minister Emeritus, and 4 VAMs who rotate through leadership of a lectio divina bible study on Wednesday mornings. The convos can really skew in noticeably different ways depending on who is leading.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It’s good, if there was some commonality in the diversity of conversation. But, if you go to one place where there’s wide ranging conversation, and another that has a more rigid view and not too wide ranging...the content inside each congregation varies wildly, is what I gather. It’s not just a consumer driven thing alone to want to have some reasonable idea of what you’ll be getting, where you are going, and be able to trust that to a degree. Denominations are “brands” in that sense, I suppose. Otherwise, what is the point in denominations at all? That’s sort of where I am at. I don’t see the point in them.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think the point is supposed to be some solidarity of views and beliefs, but I get the impression that all major denominations keep coming apart in that respect. And now there are about 30,000 denominations in the world. So, why “denominations”? The one common factor in Christianity is Christ.

 

[Luce NDs]

I think the point is supposed to be some solidarity of views and beliefs, but I get the impression that all major denominations keep coming apart in that respect. And now there are about 30,000 denominations in the world. So, why “denominations”? The one common factor in Christianity is Christ.

Christ is all over da' place --- Lord Rutherford ... on pan-ayers and basket cases ... then tres pan 'ations were a class of people that drilled into peoples heads to release demons ... possibly denied thoughts?

Some myths state there was a tradition in Egypt that did this ... seekers of thought ... denomyns?

 

[paradox3]

I think the point is supposed to be some solidarity of views and beliefs, but I get the impression that all major denominations keep coming apart in that respect. And now there are about 30,000 denominations in the world. So, why “denominations”? The one common factor in Christianity is Christ.

Except for Gretta, who was mentioned above. Not much, if any, Christ in her message. Or scripture, for that matter.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I’m not even sure I can judge that if she’s teaching “love thy neighbour”, and the values of justice and mercy. I think I have before. It’s easy to judge but I also feel wrong to do so. It doesn’t feel right to me that Jesus isn’t mentioned at church, like she’s thrown the baby out with the bath water - so to speak - but that doesn’t make me right to assume Christ isn’t still a part of the picture in essence. If it’s love, it’s from God. And if it’s not love, the opposite is true, even if it’s preached in Christ’s name. ...And everyone of us is guilty of not being as loving towards others as we could’ve been, sometimes.

However, it still makes me wonder what the point is in denominations in general. They seem to be big institutions that are slow to change. There are all kinds of ecumenical and interfaith efforts, and common outreach projects, that I think are time better spent than focusing on denominations. The church I attend now calls itself “post denominational”, and there are people there from as many backgrounds as UCCan has in its congregations - but it is evangelical in style, trinitarian, and open minded to different perspectives. And it’s small so puzzles about policies are easy (easier) to solve. What I have come to realize is everyone there is at a different place on their journeys (some having come a long way, from fundamentalism to more liberal theology, but still not ready to let go of some beliefs) - but everyone is “seeking God” in that we are seeking love and the community and belonging that follows from love.

 

[chansen]

Except for Gretta, who was mentioned above. Not much, if any, Christ in her message. Or scripture, for that matter.

Thanks be to God.

 

[Luce NDs]

Thanks be to God.

Thus the Light was hidden in the lost souls ... denied and rejected as unneeded wisdom to the brute forces ...

What's Light? Tis an energetic enigma from the other side of the line separating intellect from the purely emotional and opinionated ... here on earth this is all stirred into the mix and thus the sage saying: "chaos all is chaos" others say "huge vanities" and all a' Din" ... at least until getting to the other side of the tapestry that some say is a travesty ... hopefully we get through it while learning something of bloody greedy life ...

Besides you can't be here and say nothing ... tis unnatural ... nonsense flows with some hidden gemstones ... as generally people were taught to know naut ... thus the naughty call ... tis a test for getting you into a place of rest ... dark mystery then ... as we wonder where ego goes when somnolent! An alter state ... can you imagine an alter ego like Daedalus ... Joycean abstract meaning something else again ... tis similar to a lacy veil ... and arsenic-he ... him hoo fell for the wiggle?

 

[paradox3]

I’m not even sure I can judge that if she’s teaching “love thy neighbour”, and the values of justice and mercy. I think I have before. It’s easy to judge but I also feel wrong to do so. It doesn’t feel right to me that Jesus isn’t mentioned at church, like she’s thrown the baby out with the bath water - so to speak - but that doesn’t make me right to assume Christ isn’t still a part of the picture in essence. If it’s love, it’s from God. And if it’s not love, the opposite is true, even if it’s preached in Christ’s name. ...And everyone of us is guilty of not being as loving towards others as we could’ve been, sometimes.

I definitely see Gretta teaching "love thy neighbour" but not by using those particular words. The values of justice and mercy are certainly present in her work along with other humanistic values.

Agree with your comment about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

So is Christ still part of the picture in essence? Good question. Gretta would probably say no although I don't think we can discount the influence of Christian faith on her journey.

As I see it, there is point where progressive Christianity crosses over into post Christianity. And possibly a point where post Christianity becomes secular humanism.

The statement "If it's love, it's from God." is in itself, a faith statement. Many (most?) post Christians and (probably all) secular humanists would not accept God as the source of love.

 

[paradox3]

A post by @Mendalla seems to have disappeared. I tried to reply to it and got an error message stating that it could not be found.

It was about non-monotheistic faiths.

 

[Mendalla]

A post by @Mendalla seems to have disappeared. I tried to reply to it and got an error message stating that it could not be found.

It was about non-monotheistic faiths.

Yeah, I decided it was a bit off topic from what you were saying. Just pointed out that the non-monotheistic faith like Buddhism would also not say that love comes from God.

 

[paradox3]

Yeah, I decided it was a bit off topic from what you were saying. Just pointed out that the non-monotheistic faith like Buddhism would also not say that love comes from God.

Oh, I thought it was a good point and related to the topic. I was about to say that the statement "If it's love, it's from God" is an expression of a worldview. We might passionately believe statements such as this but they are still statements of faith. Not of "reality".

 

[Mendalla]

I'm a bit ambiguous on the "If it's love, it's from God" statement even from a theistic standpoint. It takes some agency and value away from humans and human love by essentially giving all the credit for Love to God. I think Love is something that exists apart from God and that God seeks to bring out in us (and other beings). God as a force for promoting and creating Love rather than "God is Love". Love can exist without God is what I am saying, I guess. Perhaps that's more of a process point of view than traditional theism, though.

 

[paradox3]

Some theists might say that Love is God "within" us. Sounds good but this statement really takes some unpacking.

On this day before Mothers' Day I am reflecting on maternal love being, in part, hormonal. At least in the beginning. I guess hormones are part of creation, when you think about it.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I definitely see Gretta teaching "love thy neighbour" but not by using those particular words. The values of justice and mercy are certainly present in her work along with other humanistic values.

Agree with your comment about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

So is Christ still part of the picture in essence? Good question. Gretta would probably say no although I don't think we can discount the influence of Christian faith on her journey.

As I see it, there is point where progressive Christianity crosses over into post Christianity. And possibly a point where post Christianity becomes secular humanism.

The statement "If it's love, it's from God." is in itself, a faith statement. Many (most?) post Christians and (probably all) secular humanists would not accept God as the source of love.

They may not, but Christians do. As witnesses to any love, where else would we believe it comes from? So, it may be post Christian, as per what she preaches; but is it Christian behaviour to ban her from her capacity to preach it, if love is love, and Christians believe the source of love is God? If Christians tie her into the fold by way of witness, maybe it is still Christian. That said, I went over to a church that is more evangelical about teaching and praising Jesus, not less. However, the whole denominational issue - I attended a Christian hosted ecumenical and interfaith arts festival event a few weeks ago and was it ever rich and inspiring. Whereas, denominations seem to be getting concerned about self preservation. I get it, but also would welcome church (in general) someday becoming like that event.

 

[revsdd]

They may not, but Christians do. As witnesses to any love, where else would we believe it comes from?

Actually, and just to be precise, many Christians would not agree with the statement that "if it's love, its from God." They would point to Scripture, which says that "God is love" rather than "love is God" and then begin unpacking the word "love." So is it eros, or philia or storgos or agape? When applied to God, the word used is usually agape - so it would be argued by some that eros, philia and storgos are types of human love, but not what's meant by "God is love."

I've actually seen some who translate the Greek word "mania" (which is not in the New Testament) as love - an unhealthy, obsessive, controlling love. I'd argue that isn't love at all, but some do make the translation.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Well, what do you think?

I don’t believe actual love has any other source.

In my opinion...In Jesus Christ, God is also fully human, so all love applies.

To learn in church that God is not love would make me give up on church, put the bible on the shelf, and just believe in love.

 

[paradox3]

I don’t believe actual love has any other source.

In my opinion...In Jesus Christ, God is also fully human, so all love applies.

I don't necessarily see God as the source of all love. God calls us to love, certainly, and I would say that Jesus is a manifestation of God's love and character.

Growing up, I was taught that Jesus is fully human and fully divine in some mysterious way. Not sure exactly where I stand on this now. It is one of those elements of faith that shifts around on me.

To learn in church that God is not love would make me give up on church, put the bible on the shelf, and just believe in love.

Since we have been discussing Vosper, I will add that she teaches God as human projection (i.e. created by human beings) or God as metaphor for values. Learning this in church (Gretta's) did not make me give up on church or put the bible on the shelf. It did, however, lead me to seek out a different church home.

In Gretta's mind love is, well, Love. The central value. "Nothing more is needed, nothing less will do" in the words of a progressive hymn written by Scott Kearns.

It is certainly possible to just believe in love. But is just believing in love Christian faith or is it post Christian? The jury is still out on this one.

 

[Mendalla]

It is certainly possible to just believe in love. But is just believing in love Christian faith or is it post Christian? The jury is still out on this one.

To my mind, to be CHRISTian, that love needs to somehow be related back to the teachings of Jesus Christ, who was pretty clearly a theist himself even if one rejects his divinity. I think that as soon as love itself becomes the focus, and is detached from God as the source of it or Jesus as the teacher/embodiment of it, you're into post-Christian.