What makes Us Clean? Unclean??

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GordW said:
So what makes people unclean in the world today? And what is required to make them (us) clean?
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what makes us unclean:

Spiritually speaking , 1) our nature, 2) the god of this world that capitalizes on 1

what Makes us Clean :

The Creator
 
Quit yer jokin', guys, this is a serious topic!

Let me get this straight: The Creator created us unclean. Then He sent His only begotten son (begotten -- not created!) and sacrificed him in a horrible blood sacrifice in order to cleanse us from the uncleanliness He had created in us in the first place.

Why did the Creator go to all that trouble? Wouldn't it have been easier for Him to create us clean?


Now, to be really serious instead of being facetious, one could regard all of this as mythology, and take it as a metaphor for regeneration and rebirth, but it still remains a bad metaphor. The Phoenix regenerating herself by rising from her ashes means the same, but is a good metaphor, because nobody will possibly take it literally, and think long and hard about the metaphorical meaning and its implications. But the substitutionary atonement, whereby God horribly sacrficed his only begotten son in order to atone for our sins, is taken literally by many Christians, and is written in such a way as to be taken literally, and has been rigidly dogmatised in order to enshrine its literal meaning.

Conventional Christianity imposes on us shame for having been born unclean, and then attempts to cleanse us from this with the horrible blood sacrifice of a humanified deity, thereby piling guilt on top of shame. As if this weren't enough, it uses the threat of eternal damnation if we don't literally believe in this horror story! Conventional Christianity is trying to make us act morally by imposing on us guilt, fear, and shame, and also uses this to control us!

Is such a religion worth keeping?

My answer is a resounding "NO!"
 
Waterfall said:
Does it change the meaning of the story for you Hermann if God sacrificed Himself?
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What, God sacrificing Himself in order to cleanse us of the taint he has dirtied us with in the first place?

Why would He not simply refrain from tainting us?

One can, of course, take all of this metaphorically. Or one can argue endlessly about the possible intentions of a hypothetical deity.

To me, God is experiential and beyond definition.

I think and feel that we are form and substance. The form is temporary and constantly changing, the substance is eternally unchanging, but possesses the transcendental power to change itself while remaining eternally unchanging.

The form is subject to all the trials and tribulations of constant change. If we are aware of being the form only, then we suffer the shortcomings of being only form. But, as soon as we dis-identify being only form, and identify as being eternally unchanging substance, with the transcendental power of being form and being substance, then our being has taken on a whole new meaning, and we rejoice in being form as well as substance.

Then we are cleansed from the affliction of being only form!

If the eternal transcendental substance were to be regarded as "God," then God would indeed sacrifice its supremacy to become flesh, and rejoice in being God in the flesh, as well as being God eternal.


Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice greatly! ~ ~ ~ :)
 
Hermann said:
What, God sacrificing Himself in order to cleanse us of the taint he has dirtied us with in the first place?

Why would He not simply refrain from tainting us?

One can, of course, take all of this metaphorically. Or one can argue endlessly about the possible intentions of a hypothetical deity.
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I believe most scholars agree that Jesus did exist, and I also agree, so there is no need for metaphor IMO. I'm also a firm believer that Jesus wants us to use our wisdom in regards to the crucifixion, so when we are tainted by blind belief or the usual dogmas, along with atheistic suggestions that challenge us, then I think it's better to dig deeper into what Jesus is actually saying. When he says, "forgive them for what they do", he is not asking forgiveness for God for putting Him on the cross, He is asking forgiveness for the people that put him there. God doesn't believe in sacrifice, this is also what God says. So it doesn't make sense to me that God would sacrifice anyone to forgive our sins. I believe the crucifixion showed that WE would sacrifice God. Human "kind" delivered the most vile and cruel display of power and arrogance that they could come up with, and it was a sin, and He forgave them. An actual real person forgave them in order to change their hearts, can we do that? And it began to change the world, and if we remember it right it still should, but instead we sully the story with stupid and false teachings that only draw laughter and ridicule.
 
Hermman your quotes -----What, God sacrificing Himself in order to cleanse us of the taint he has dirtied us with in the first place?
Why would He not simply refrain from tainting us?

That was God's plan --God created Humans and put an adversary in place to tempt us and it worked ----Adam could have refused the fruit but didn't and God already knew he would take the bait ---Adam was created from the dust of the ground and was an adult ---God then destroyed all mankind except Noah and family hoping to regain order but God knew before the flood that humans would fall again --so He carried His plan on so He could bring His Son into this world Born of a Woman ----born from a womb ---born a baby not an adult to experience all the emotions and trials etc first hand -----and created a way for His creation to be restored back to Him -----

We might not agree with it but it is the way it is -----and anyone that has a problem with it needs to go to God for answers ----as it is beyond our human understanding -----I am just glad that He created a way back to Him as I am living such a great life ----

Thanks be to God for sending His Son to set us free and bring us back to His Order ------Something we all should be greatful for in my opinion ----
 
What a ridiculous plan. What separates that from any other fairy tale? Make Jesus ascend up a beanstalk, for example.

There may have been a historical Jesus. That part is sketchy, as is much of his supposed life, as is the identities of the authors and timelines of the gospels.

Compared to any other religion, the story is no more or less believable. It has no more evidence in its corner than Islam, for example. There is certainly more evidence of the existence of Muhammad.
 
Hermann said:
What, God sacrificing Himself in order to cleanse us of the taint he has dirtied us with in the first place?
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God didn't taint us , we did that


Why would He not simply refrain from tainting us?
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again the choice was ours to make not Gods


One can, of course, take all of this metaphorically. Or one can argue endlessly about the possible intentions of a hypothetical deity.
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or one can let God Speak for God Self and see it Gods way


To me, God is experiential and beyond definition.
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that is the point is it not? we create God as we see Him , and then wonder why things don't add up


I think and feel that we are form and substance. The form is temporary and constantly changing, the substance is eternally unchanging, but possesses the transcendental power to change itself while remaining eternally unchanging.
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the history of humanity proves we have no power to change self
 
Really. You can't think of any other story or fairy tale where somebody who was supposed to be dead, comes back to life?

It's like you want to look ridiculous.
 
chansen said:
Really. You can't think of any other story or fairy tale where somebody who was supposed to be dead, comes back to life?

It's like you want to look ridiculous.
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if people were just as critical of the other fairy tale stories as they are of The Resurrections, i might look at it but so far according to mine and scholarly studies , no one has seen any . All they see is , apart from biblical claims, historical ones.
 
chansen said:
What?
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I think bb is trying to say all other ressurection stories are fairy tales except for the one that is in the Bible. Or is he trying to say the Ressurection is similar to a fairy tale but it is also based on historical facts. Actually I am not sure what he is trying to say. Say what?
 
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