What makes Us Clean? Unclean??

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GordW

GordW

Church-Geek-Oramus
Pronouns
He/Him/His
THat is the question I was working with this week. The Scripture passage was the healing of Naaman in 2 Kings 5:1-14. Naaman seems to think being made clean needs a great show of power. But Elisha just tells him to go take a bath. And Jesus makes it even easier--he just says "be made clean"

So what makes people unclean in the world today? ANd what is required to make them (us) clean?
 
I think environmental pollution is spiritual pollution. A clean environment makes for a clean body and soul.

David Suzuki, on his "Blue Dot" tour, is campaigning for having environmental protection enshrined in the Canadian constitution. Norway did it, why not we? A chance for Canada to come clean.
 
Hi Gord W--I would say you become unclean when you sin. Or if you will, when you disobey God. You are clean when you wash in the blood of the Lamb

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=7&v=9&t=RSV#comm/10



Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"

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Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!"
 
And I would say that we are made clean when God says "you are my Beloved child", we do nothing to make ourselves clean, nor do we need to do so. I also have a hunch that we are never as unclean as we or others try to tell us....
 
God may say 'you are my child', but it's up to us follow up on that offer of "oneness" by keeping our vehicles as pure as possible.

With pure and unselfish thoughts we begin to become clean.
 
These are just my thoughts on this --------

Is unclean the right word --It could be I guess but I think it should be what makes people acceptable and unacceptable in our eyes today ---and how do we overcome our fears and prejudice against certain groups of people in todays world ------

Naaman was a puffed up man and went from the top down to get his healing instead of approaching it from the bottom up ---He was in the Old Testament unclean both physically and spiritually ---

The Servant Girl is the hero in this story ---she could have hated her master and watched this disease kill him but she showed mercy for him and knew he could be healed -----here we see Agape in action ----Life becomes less about ourselves and more about helping others heal and be accepted ---- The water Naaman washed in didn't heal him ---God did ---

To be like this servant girl today we need to be Grounded and rooted in God's love and trust and know who we are in Christ before we can even begin to consider touching and mingling with the unclean ----we may succeed a bit with some who we consider not to much of a threat but for the most part we will keep our distance --Ebola is in our back door and all are afraid to be near or associate with these people even when they are not infected ----Fear ---

We respond differently to different groups of people ----Jesus treated all people the same ----Jesus is not a respecter of Persons

Acts 10:34-35Amplified Bible (AMP)

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certainly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons,

35 But in every nation he who venerates and has a reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable to Him and[a]sure of being received and welcomed [by Him].

Accepting the unlovely ---the unclean ----shows our act of Faith and the power of Grace ---Agape drives out all fears ----

Jesus accomplished protection for us ---it is God's promise in His Blessings for us -----Deuteronomy 7:15 and Psalms 91:10 says no harm will overtake you ----

We have to first fill our account with His Love and keep it there ---don't deplete it --and know that we can and have the ability to love the unclean and accept the unacceptable because Jesus first loved us who were filthy rags and dirty sinners full of sores and wounds contagious and downtrodden but He loved us anyway -----Only accepting Him are we cleansed and made Clean -----

When we accept Christ we have His DNA on the inside of us ---It is important then for us to grow in our Love and Faith and Character to be able to accept ---treat and mingle with the unclean ---the unlovely and the unaccepted ------Am I there yet ---No --but working diligently every day on accomplishing this goal .

Thanks be to God for sending His Son to wash us clean --to be able to be accepted into His Family and become Sons and Daughters of the most High ------
 
The whole "unclean" narrative just smacks of playing on guilt and fear. Those are tools that can be used to get people to do your bidding - guilt and fear. Prey on people. Get them to think of all the bad things they've done and the mistakes they've made. Convince them they are unworthy sinners. Beat them down. Make them fear God. Then tell them that God has provided a way out! They can be saved! Use some fancy imagery about blood (okay, "fancy" and "blood" don't belong together, so call it "impressive" instead).

It's manipulation, pure and simple. It's playing on guilt and fear, and it's disgusting.

We ought to slap down this sort of position whenever we are presented with it. People are not "unclean". You were not born inherently bad or sinful. People who tell you you were are a**holes. Ignore them, or join the growing chorus of voices opposed to these disastrous ideas.
 
I was at Gord's church yesterday and found what he had to say quite moving. I did not see it as a guilt trip as he described it. I did not even look at the video about about loving the unlovable. I don't happen to believe people are unlovable. I do recognize that some are harder to "love" than others. I work with people who many dismiss as unlovable. That attitude is not helpful at all.

I think Gord's sermon yesterday moved me partly because I had spoken to a man the other day who continues to struggle with demons. I'm not sure he has ever felt compassion from others. He certainly couldn't feel it for himself. I was finding myself wondering how I could tell him to just "take a bath". Perhaps in my context at work, by giving him compassion, and helping him to find it himself, is part of his "bath".

Feeling unclean or unlovable is often something we accept based on how people have treated us. We do not have to accept others' judgements of us. I've seen healing when people have come to the realization that they are "beloved children" of some sort. When they find their value and self-worth in spite of all the crap they've had to endure.

The only giggle I had yesterday when the cute little blonde girl next to Gord made a comment that stumped him a bit. It's often the PK, isn't it...... :whistle:
 
chansen said:
The whole "unclean" narrative just smacks of playing on guilt and fear. Those are tools that can be used to get people to do your bidding - guilt and fear. Prey on people. Get them to think of all the bad things they've done and the mistakes they've made. Convince them they are unworthy sinners. Beat them down. Make them fear God. Then tell them that God has provided a way out! They can be saved! Use some fancy imagery about blood (okay, "fancy" and "blood" don't belong together, so call it "impressive" instead).

It's manipulation, pure and simple. It's playing on guilt and fear, and it's disgusting.

We ought to slap down this sort of position whenever we are presented with it. People are not "unclean". You were not born inherently bad or sinful. People who tell you you were are a**holes. Ignore them, or join the growing chorus of voices opposed to these disastrous ideas.
Click to expand...

Yes, chansen, I agree. Making us act responsibly by imposing on us guilt, fear, and shame is the guilt trip Christian religion has laid on us for centuries or even millennia. To me, environmental pollution is the only "unclean" there is, and to cleanse it is entirely within our powers.
 
I think it is the practice of social and environmental justice that makes us either "clean" or "unclean."

The practice of social and environmental responsibility makes us socially and environmentally responsible, not thoughts or beliefs. The practice, of course, depends very much on what's inside our heads. But what's inside alone won't do. Putting it into practice is what counts!


Action trumps doctrine.

-RevJohn
 
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Before we can clean up our planet we have to clean up our thoughts. Clean actions follow clean thoughts.
 
Yes, of course.

The "Four Rights" of the Buddha are: Right Consciousness -> Right Thought -> Right Action -> Right Livelihood.

The sequence is important. Right Consciousness, which is the awareness of universal oneness, comes first. Right Thought arises from Right Consciousness, and Right Action from Right Thought.
 
This is the question from the OP -----So what makes people unclean in the world today? ANd what is required to make them (us) clean?


waterfall ---your quote ----Isn't it about what's inside of us that makes us clean or unclean? Holy or profane.

what is it that needs to be on the inside to make us clean or unclean ---Holy or profane -------just trying to understand the meaning of your quote ---So if one chooses the profession of a prostitute and is looked down upon by us --or one chooses a profession of nursing and goes to Africa to help the ebola and comes back and is shuned by us how do we view these people --do we personally view them as clean or unclean ---holy or profane -----can we accpet these people --that is can we mingle and associate ourselves with them without fear or judgment -----Are we clean or unclean ---holy or profane in how we respond to these people ---- How can we break the barrier --- The Old Testament clean and unclean is different from the New Testament ----

How can we ourselves stay clean and holy what do we need to do and how do we do it ?

Acts 10:11-15 ---is all about this subject Peter has a vision -----this is Commentary on this scripture ----Read more here ----http://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/10-15.htm


Barnes' Notes on the Bible

What God hath cleansed - What God has pronounced or declared pure. If God has commanded you to do a thing, it is not impure or wrong. Perhaps Peter would suppose that the design of this vision was to instruct him that the distinction between clean and unclean food, as recognized by the Jews, was about to be abolished,Acts 10:17. But the result showed that it had a higher and more important design. It was to show him that they who had been esteemed by the Jews as unclean or profane - the entire Gentile world - might now be admitted to similar privileges with the Jews. That barrier was robe broken down, and the whole world was to be admitted to the same fellowship and privileges in the gospel. SeeEphesians 2:14;Galatians 3:28. It was also true that the ceremonial laws of the Jews in regard to clean and unclean beasts was to pass away, though this was not directly taught in this vision. But when once the barrier was removed that separated the Jews and Gentiles, all the laws which were founded on such a distinction, and which were framed to keep up such a distinction, passed away of course. The ceremonial laws of the Jews were designed solely to keep up the distinction between them and other nations. When the distinction was abolished; when other nations were to be admitted to the same privileges, the laws which were made to keep up such a difference received their death-blow, and expired of course. For it is a maxim of all law, that when the reason why a law was made ceases to exist, the law becomes obsolete. Yet it was not easy to convince the Jews that their laws ceased to be binding. This point the apostles labored to establish; and from this point arose most of the difficulties between the Jewish and Gentile converts to Christianity. SeeActs 15; andRomans 14-15:
 
Hermann said:
Yes, of course.

The "Four Rights" of the Buddha are: Right Consciousness -> Right Thought -> Right Action -> Right Livelihood.

The sequence is important. Right Consciousness, which is the awareness of universal oneness, comes first. Right Thought arises from Right Consciousness, and Right Action from Right Thought.
Click to expand...
It all comes down to right thinking, which is in our control.

We sow a thought and reap an act;
We sow an act and reap a habit;
We sow a habit and reap a character;
We sow a character and reap a destiny
- Ralph Emerson​

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.
- Proverbs XXIII:7​
 
unsafe said:
This is the question from the OP -----So what makes people unclean in the world today? ANd what is required to make them (us) clean?


waterfall ---your quote ----Isn't it about what's inside of us that makes us clean or unclean? Holy or profane.

what is it that needs to be on the inside to make us clean or unclean ---Holy or profane -------just trying to understand the meaning of your quote ---So if one chooses the profession of a prostitute and is looked down upon by us --or one chooses a profession of nursing and goes to Africa to help the ebola and comes back and is shuned by us how do we view these people --do we personally view them as clean or unclean ---holy or profane -----can we accpet these people --that is can we mingle and associate ourselves with them without fear or judgment -----Are we clean or unclean ---holy or profane in how we respond to these people ---- How can we break the barrier --- The Old Testament clean and unclean is different from the New Testament ----

How can we ourselves stay clean and holy what do we need to do and how do we do it ?

Acts 10:11-15 ---is all about this subject Peter has a vision -----this is Commentary on this scripture ----Read more here ----http://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/10-15.htm
Click to expand...

I see the "clean" as being "set apart"/distinct, much the same as "the holy" is set apart from the unholy.
 
Neo said:
It all comes down to right thinking, which is in our control.

We sow a thought and reap an act;
We sow an act and reap a habit;
We sow a habit and reap a character;
We sow a character and reap a destiny
- Ralph Emerson​

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.
- Proverbs XXIII:7​
Click to expand...

Amen!
 
chansen said:
The whole "unclean" narrative just smacks of playing on guilt and fear. Those are tools that can be used to get people to do your bidding - guilt and fear. Prey on people. Get them to think of all the bad things they've done and the mistakes they've made. Convince them they are unworthy sinners. Beat them down. Make them fear God. Then tell them that God has provided a way out! They can be saved! Use some fancy imagery about blood (okay, "fancy" and "blood" don't belong together, so call it "impressive" instead).

It's manipulation, pure and simple. It's playing on guilt and fear, and it's disgusting.

We ought to slap down this sort of position whenever we are presented with it. People are not "unclean". You were not born inherently bad or sinful. People who tell you you were are a**holes. Ignore them, or join the growing chorus of voices opposed to these disastrous ideas.
Click to expand...
Yes, the whole "unclean" narrative smacks of playing on guilt and fear and are tools that can be used on us, but there is a much deeper meaning to the narrative. I see these terms from a more philosophical side, where it is just yet one more example of the dual nature of our being. On one side we are form, which is in the guise of a "personality", which is made up of a trinity of physical, emotional and mental "vehicles", of which we use to interact with the world. On the other side we are the result of a never ending "spirit", a qualified energy that works upon that form. This spirit works out and expresses itself as our aspirations, our higher thoughts, our intuition. It is here where one "becomes the truth", knowing it without emotion or concrete mind. It is here that the abstract mind intuits based on experience, (see definition at http://web.stanford.edu/~mcfrank/papers/boroditsky2001.pdf).

I don't disagree with you re the fear and guilt trips that can be laid upon us. These are the negative aspects of what we do as a people. Whereas the positive aspects are in the intelligent and loving application of what we do. Our dreams of a brighter future where everyone lives in peace, our love for our family, our neighbours, our neighbouring countries, (especially during natural disasters).

The words 'clean' and 'unclean' are just two more ways we describe the fact that in this world we live in a duality. We are either evolving or we are devolving in life, going forward or going backward. Apathy is the closest thing to sitting on the fence, but even that is considered to be a backwards motion to self development. We can either be mill-stoned to the past or we can yearn and dream of the future. This is the choice we make in life. Being clean or unclean means the same to me, we are what we think. If organized religions use this to install fear and control, (and they do), then it's up to us to make the choice to listen to them or not.
 
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