TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

[revsdd]

Our news media have been lavish in reporting on statements of how cruel and illegal it was for Russia (so our leaders say) to attempt the murder of a double agent - and, gasp, using chemical poison.

Why wasn't our press so active on the use of a chemical poison by the U.S. in Vietnam? (Agent Orange).

Why no finger pointing at the U.S. (illegal) invasions of 70 countries?

Where's the indignation that the U.S. continues to practice illegal torture all over the world? And the new head of the CIA is a motherly type who used to be the chief torturer?

Why haven't our news media examined the obvious lie that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? The lie makes that war and the killing of one and a half million people quite illegal.

Read or heard much about the forced starvation of millions in Yemen? Is Canada proposing any sanctions?

The presence of U.S. troops in Syria is illegal under international law. Heard about that in the news?

When will our news media recognize the reality? We are the Naziis of our time. That is not an overstatement. That is reality. Our side is exactly the same as the Naziis of World War Two.

But there's no righteousness like self righteousness.

A lot of what you write I tend to agree with, but would make the following points.

According to a bit of internet research, the New York Times first reported on Agent Orange in 1962. Although for the first few years reports tended to simply repeat the position of the US government that Agent Orange was used simply for defoliage and was not harmful to humans, the first report describing the horrible effect of Agent Orange on humans was published in 1966, and between 1966 and 1980 there were more than 400 articles in the New York Times describing the true nature of Agent Orange.

There has certainly been some finger pointing about illegal US invasions of other countries.

Just a few days ago I noted that the newly nominated head of the CIA had past involvement in torture and that there was at least one group asking for her to be arrested and charged for it. You know how I found that out? In the media.

I am stunned that you would even suggest that the media did not examine the US lie that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Seriously, Graeme. That must have been one of the best covered stories I can remember. How Colin Powell stood up and showed fake photographic evidence at the UN Security Council. That you would even suggest that this lie wasn't examined by the media really makes it hard to take you seriously.

I agree with you that coverage of US actions in Syria and Yemen are being given woefully limited coverage, and that there is a western tendency toward self-righteousness. "We" are the good guys; "they're" the bad guys. For that reason, pointing out the actions (or failure to act) of the US and other western countries is important. Although we shouldn't just jump to the conclusion that Russia or North Korea or whoever are pillars of innocence who should necessarily be given the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that "they" are morally superior to "us." Just morally equal.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

North Korea is just one giant concentration camp. If you try to leave, you get shot. It is not that way because of sanctions. Sanctions are because it is that way.

 

[Luce NDs]

North Korea is just one giant concentration camp. If you try to leave, you get shot. It is not that way because of sanctions. Sanctions are because it is that way.

There are no other concentration of countries that confine people and Nous (bode & sol)? Then some don't recognize sol in preference to doing just as they wile ...

 

[revsdd]

North Korea is just one giant concentration camp. If you try to leave, you get shot. It is not that way because of sanctions. Sanctions are because it is that way.

I certainly have no argument with you about the brutality of the North Korean regime. However, that doesn't make them morally inferior. After all, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And "we" are as capable of doing evil as "they" are.

So, hold them accountable and point out their excesses by all means - which is why I said to Graeme that it's wrong to just take a pass on Russia or North Korea and incessantly blame every ill in the world on the United States or the West in general. But don't become self-righteous by doing it, as if doing evil is something that "we" are incapable of. Like it or not, the example of 1930's Germany - how quickly a western and supposedly "civilized" country (including that country's Christians) could just knuckle under to the Nazis - should be always before us, not to demonize those we oppose but to remind ourselves of how easily it can happen.

 

[Waterfall]

And we still cling to the Nazi story like it's a unique event in the world when in fact it continues to happen all over the globe....even while we discuss how Hitler could have accomplished this while the world watched.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

I have never said that Russia or China were babes in the wood. I don't blame every ill of the world on the U.S. It just happens to be the world's biggest killer right now - and by far. Estimates of the murdered by the U.S. since 1945 run to as many as 25 million people. And it's obvious that Britain and the U.S. are lying about the recent attack on a double agent in Britain. (I have a lot of material to post on that.)
We are flirting on the edge of world nuclear war.

The reality, though, is that Britain and the U.S. have a long history of mass murder, brutality and theft. Winston Churchill was no sweetheart, but a mass murderer at the service of the very wealthy. (Read much about that in our news media?) And we in the west are now the world's new Fascists and Naziis. That's not a casual slur. Our economies, aggressions, and even our news media are based on the Nazi and Fascist model.

We are ruled by a relatively new aristocracy of the very wealthy. They own our governments. Their tool is capitalism, which lends itself to rule by the greedy ( but not very intelligent).

All of this is contrary to Christianity and Judaism and Islam and any other religion I ever heard of. All decisions are based on the greed of a very few. Our great excuse for this is patriotism which, in fact, is a vile concept. (Though I remember, as a child, that our pulpit always had a Union Jack by it.) Patriotism is the belief in service to one's country. But what that service is depends on who rules the country. Naziis and Fascists were very patriotic. The American soldiers who murdered a whole village an My Lai were patriots. So were the ones who invaded Iraq on the basis of false claims, and who murdered at least one and a half million Iraqis. And it's American patriots who are starving the Yemeni to death.
When you pledge your idealism to a nation, which is what patriotism is, you are really pledging it to those who control the nation. And in the western world (and to a high degree in Russia and China) the controllers are the extremely wealthy.

As Christians we owe our idealism to the service of people, not to nations.

We are now very, very close to world nuclear war. And I see nothing Christian about that, not on any side.

Oh, I note that the UN is condemning Russia for the attack on a double agent. Where was the UN when the U.S. was butchering millions in 70 countries.

Yes, I know the media reported some of this - almost always in gentle tones. The result, a deliberate one, is that few people know the extent of U.S. brutality, and few even think of it.

Later, I shall send more news that is NOT appearing in our papers about the current flare-up. Some of it is from very impressive sources - including leaders of British poison chemical research firms.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

Oh, a footnote. Our news media for news on Iraq commonly quote The Syrian Observatory of Human Rights, and frequently admire the "white helmets" of the Syrian "rebel" groups. And Hollywood churned out an Oscar winning film for them.

In fact, the Syrian Observatory of Human Rights is a propaganda house founded by a Syrian haberdasher living in Britain. (our news media don't tell us that.) And the White Helmets are, too, a propaganda tool.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

Seen many of these in your local papers?

U.S. and Uzbeks Agree on Chemical Arms Plant Cleanup

Jeremy Corbyn defies critics and calls for calm over Russia

The farcical reality behind Theresa May’s “novichok” story

UPDATED: UK’s “novichok” claim exposed as lies: what is the current reality of the Skripal case?


Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray

The Second Cold War Has Begun — and We Only Have Ourselves to Blame

https://www.globalresearch.ca/of-a-.../when-dealing-with-a-bear-hubris-is-suicidal/

 

[revsdd]

And we still cling to the Nazi story like it's a unique event in the world when in fact it continues to happen all over the globe....even while we discuss how Hitler could have accomplished this while the world watched.

We "cling" to the story, I think, not because it's "unique" but because it's iconic. As I pointed out earlier, that it could happen in "civilized" and "cultured" Germany - a country that had produced giants in science, in music, in art, in religion, in literature - is symbolic of how easy it is even for us to fall subject to those same forces.

Nazi Germany was built on the "strong man" philosophy - a strong leader who had contempt for the country's democratic institutions and who would would target our enemies and make us great again. I'm not really interested in doing a Godwin - but I have to ask if that sounds at least remotely familiar?

 

[Mendalla]

Nazi Germany was built on the "strong man" philosophy - a strong leader who had contempt for the country's democratic institutions and who would would target our enemies and make us great again. I'm not really interested in doing a Godwin - but I have to ask if that sounds at least remotely familiar?

Vladimir Putin?

 

[Waterfall]

We "cling" to the story, I think, not because it's "unique" but because it's iconic. As I pointed out earlier, that it could happen in "civilized" and "cultured" Germany - a country that had produced giants in science, in music, in art, in religion, in literature - is symbolic of how easy it is even for us to fall subject to those same forces.

Nazi Germany was built on the "strong man" philosophy - a strong leader who had contempt for the country's democratic institutions and who would would target our enemies and make us great again. I'm not really interested in doing a Godwin - but I have to ask if that sounds at least remotely familiar?

Could say all of the above for Syria and other nations, but I'm not sure what that has to do with silently watching genocides and doing nothing, no matter what a countries contributions or culture is?

 

[revsdd]

Could say all of the above for Syria and other nations, but I'm not sure what that has to do with silently watching genocides and doing nothing, no matter what a countries contributions or culture is?

You actually couldn't say that for Syria and many other nations, because an important prerequisite for the Nazi comparison is a functioning democracy. Weimar Germany was a functioning democracy - using the uber-democratic and much sainted proportional representation. You know. The system that's supposed to ensure consensus government and prevent any one party from getting too much power. Worked great in Weimar Germany. But back to the point.

You said that we "cling" to Nazi Germany. I said it's symbolic. It's symbolic of the fact that "we" can do great evil. We damn well better cling to Nazi Germany, as long as by clinging to it we acknowledge that it represents how easy it is for "us" (supposedly cultured and democratic western countries) to follow the same path, up to and including committing genocide.

As to why we have trouble acknowledging genocide - we don't, as long as it's somebody else committing the genocide. When it's us? There are all sorts of ways to explain that. It's a basic biblical principle that Jesus himself teaches that it's easier to point out the sins of others than to acknowledge our own sins. There's also shame. We don't want to confront the evil we do. We don't want to face it. We prefer to turn away and pretend it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that's acceptable - but shame is a powerful thing and I think a lot of self-righteousness is actually a cover for shame that is felt but can't be faced.

 

[Waterfall]

I see what you mean.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

It might be easy for us to follow the same path?

We are following the same path. We've been doing it for centuries to native peoples all over the Americas. We don't need to look at Syria or Afghanistan or North Korea or Russia or China to find evil. Churchill did it in in India. The U.S. is doing it in Yemen, is threatening to do it in North Korea.....

And do we really have a functioning democracy?

Very insightful final paragraph by revsdd.

 

[revsdd]

It might be easy for us to follow the same path?

We are following the same path. We've been doing it for centuries to native peoples all over the Americas. We don't need to look at Syria or Afghanistan or North Korea or Russia or China to find evil. Churchill did it in in India. The U.S. is doing it in Yemen, is threatening to do it in North Korea.....

May I point out that I didn't say "might." I said: "... we acknowledge that it represents how easy it is for "us" (supposedly cultured and democratic western countries) to follow the same path, up to and including committing genocide." Do you see the word "might" there?

And do we really have a functioning democracy?

I would say that we have a dysfunctional democracy - dysfunctional is still functioning, just not properly. In the same way, a diseased heart still pumps blood, but may not do it very effectively. The sign of the fact that "democracy" (broadly defined) still exists was noted by Mendalla. If I may expand his thoughts a little bit - if Kim Jong Un fires you, you're likely dead. If Vladimir Putin fires you, you'll probably be OK as long as you keep your mouth shut. If Donald Trump fires you, you can make a lot of money by writing a tell-all book. I do think that illustrates a substantial difference in the respective systems. As does the fact that I can take to the internet and very publicly say "Justin Trudeau is an ass" and not have to worry about having a late night visitor at the door to haul me away. Again - big difference.

Very insightful final paragraph by revsdd.

**takes a bow**

 

[revjohn]

As to why we have trouble acknowledging genocide - we don't, as long as it's somebody else committing the genocide. When it's us? There are all sorts of ways to explain that. It's a basic biblical principle that Jesus himself teaches that it's easier to point out the sins of others than to acknowledge our own sins. There's also shame. We don't want to confront the evil we do. We don't want to face it. We prefer to turn away and pretend it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that's acceptable - but shame is a powerful thing and I think a lot of self-righteousness is actually a cover for shame that is felt but can't be faced.

In the mid 16th Century (AD/CE) English Reformer John Bradford is alleged to have said, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Allegedly he was saying it as he watched a small parade of prisoners being marched to the gallows. Sometime later Bradford would be burned at the stake.

Of late many have come to really detest the phrase.

I think it still plays.

Bradford's humility that it was not his own morality which kept him from such extreme punishment is born out in that his own morality did not prevent others, more holy than he, thought his morality so rotted that he was deserving of death.

The wag will, of course, ask, "What happened to God's grace then?"

The wag does that to distract from the fact that it was humanity doing the executing.

In a desperate act the wag will say, Yes, but these monstrous humans did it in God's name. Human actors can claim whatever name and whatever reason they wish as motivation. It is still human hands that knot the noose, fix it in place, and pull the trap-door lever.

 

[Luce NDs]

And they say the whole world is what? ... not crazy!

We "cling" to the story, I think, not because it's "unique" but because it's iconic. As I pointed out earlier, that it could happen in "civilized" and "cultured" Germany - a country that had produced giants in science, in music, in art, in religion, in literature - is symbolic of how easy it is even for us to fall subject to those same forces.

Nazi Germany was built on the "strong man" philosophy - a strong leader who had contempt for the country's democratic institutions and who would would target our enemies and make us great again. I'm not really interested in doing a Godwin - but I have to ask if that sounds at least remotely familiar?

If not a strong may are we stupid intelligently ... for cover-up ... a coven ante ... they too are dark occult ... Sacred?

Don't tell ...

 

[Luce NDs]

You actually couldn't say that for Syria and many other nations, because an important prerequisite for the Nazi comparison is a functioning democracy. Weimar Germany was a functioning democracy - using the uber-democratic and much sainted proportional representation. You know. The system that's supposed to ensure consensus government and prevent any one party from getting too much power. Worked great in Weimar Germany. But back to the point.

You said that we "cling" to Nazi Germany. I said it's symbolic. It's symbolic of the fact that "we" can do great evil. We damn well better cling to Nazi Germany, as long as by clinging to it we acknowledge that it represents how easy it is for "us" (supposedly cultured and democratic western countries) to follow the same path, up to and including committing genocide.

As to why we have trouble acknowledging genocide - we don't, as long as it's somebody else committing the genocide. When it's us? There are all sorts of ways to explain that. It's a basic biblical principle that Jesus himself teaches that it's easier to point out the sins of others than to acknowledge our own sins. There's also shame. We don't want to confront the evil we do. We don't want to face it. We prefer to turn away and pretend it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that's acceptable - but shame is a powerful thing and I think a lot of self-righteousness is actually a cover for shame that is felt but can't be faced.

Some say Germany of that period was an embryonic demos ... not adequately cultured to withstand further oligarchii and so it slid away ... b' ackwards ... an ache ... to those preferring common advances ...

Alas the pagan's were directed to know not --- some critical sage ... savoured wealth ...

 

[Luce NDs]

It might be easy for us to follow the same path?

We are following the same path. We've been doing it for centuries to native peoples all over the Americas. We don't need to look at Syria or Afghanistan or North Korea or Russia or China to find evil. Churchill did it in in India. The U.S. is doing it in Yemen, is threatening to do it in North Korea.....

And do we really have a functioning democracy?

Very insightful final paragraph by revsdd.

Strong men (rich and powerful) should be free to disturb anything ... right down to the bottom line of setting us back 1000 years or more ... some say 25-28000 years ... be ache sides ... and the rich fall on what some Christians delight in ...

 

[Luce NDs]

In the mid 16th Century (AD/CE) English Reformer John Bradford is alleged to have said, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Allegedly he was saying it as he watched a small parade of prisoners being marched to the gallows. Sometime later Bradford would be burned at the stake.

Of late many have come to really detest the phrase.

I think it still plays.

Bradford's humility that it was not his own morality which kept him from such extreme punishment is born out in that his own morality did not prevent others, more holy than he, thought his morality so rotted that he was deserving of death.

The wag will, of course, ask, "What happened to God's grace then?"

The wag does that to distract from the fact that it was humanity doing the executing.

In a desperate act the wag will say, Yes, but these monstrous humans did it in God's name. Human actors can claim whatever name and whatever reason they wish as motivation. It is still human hands that knot the noose, fix it in place, and pull the trap-door lever.

The Wag was a dog like Erasmus and his commentary on need for education? He barely escaped the skewer ...