Have the dean come out and give them a giant key to their very own "safe space" with a giant keychain tag on it with the web address to an alt-right sub-reddit.
TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?
- Thread starter crazyheart
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Is this like some one saying shut you Pi hole ... or one of the 3 fates clipping strings and tapestries ? Tis all myth if the word goes on anyway ... like god ... continuous .. ad infinitum? Tis up there with the best of satyrs ...obscure and obtuse inde archetype ... that's old productions of myth!
Grey??????? Insubstantial material ... nu roués ... flowering thin kings ... and thinking is ab'ad item ...
Omega'd the baiting of thought ... drawn in or druid out? Tis pagan Anglo ... come from places unknown --- Jaimes Joies!
dead a lust 'ere; Eve 'n lucid state one sees the variance in icons crossing time; kree PS ... visualize PS alms!
Never speak of knowns or unknowns ... silence is best thus the rites ... as writ! But they do go on redacting cause God flows ... some believe IT contained ... God's wisdom as sacred and unseen? Rite out-ve-here ...
Are certain infamous posters who've been banned, more interesting and appealing?
Maybe banning is not the answer - but if these RL trolls with neo nazi ideas and White House connections are given legitimacy with "serious" speaking engagements, those ideas hateful ideas can incubate and ruin the gains made in equality and diversity. It is a real threat. Trump is in the White House which presents a number of threats to the world. We're having a hard time processing that. And these alt-right people are not harmless jokesters.
Rather than face it I think people are so scared that they will embrace far right positions and tell themselves they're just being fair and democratic to give them a legitimate voice. As long as they have nothing to lose. It's the "liberal elite" status they hold that will give themselves permission to feel that way. Maybe being a "liberal elite" in the first place has taught them to accommodate and make room for the very ideas that undermine liberalism instead of siding with those to the left of them who are less priveledged. It happened in Nazi Germany. The left couldn't unite against Hitler because of their own differences. People were scared and sided with Hitler. Today, those who are already marginalized groups, who are most threatened by the far right, feel, understandably, differently.
However, this new breed of far right is so flippant and callous and mischievous - trolling their way to authority - that serious debate with them can't even take place. They'll take advantage of the hospitality and poop on it.
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revsdd
Well-Known Member
There's a substantive difference between suspending people temporarily from an online discussion group and trying to ban ideas or behaviours for good.
If banning neo-Nazi or far right speech were the answer, then Germany (where bans on such speech have been in place and enforced since the end of World War II) should be a left wing paradise. It isn't. Instead, Germany has a strong and growing far-right movement, according to the German government.
Does Nazi ism pop up neo ethically as abba de Nous?
Tis consequence of those wishing not to see IT coming ... hard Nous as they like the easy life ... ignore it until it becomes ...
The presence concerns on short notice except for the adepts and aesthetic ... booty unseen?
Allows the prophet room to get aroun dite ... as dictated twas not quite rite ... we a re a flawed dash ... looking for NDs that were not ... eternal ontological? That inside gnawing ...
Tis consequence of those wishing not to see IT coming ... hard Nous as they like the easy life ... ignore it until it becomes ...
The presence concerns on short notice except for the adepts and aesthetic ... booty unseen?
Allows the prophet room to get aroun dite ... as dictated twas not quite rite ... we a re a flawed dash ... looking for NDs that were not ... eternal ontological? That inside gnawing ...
I wasn't actually referring to mine or others' short suspensions. There's only one banned person I know of. It was a little joke. Nevermind.
Are you sure that the reason for the neo-nazi rise in Germany is their free speech laws and not several other factors converging? There's a strong and growing neo nazi movement all over Europe. I don't think free speech laws is the main factor or even a significant reason for it.
In the U.S. Nazis can speak freely and they are on the rise too - with POTUS connections.
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revsdd
Well-Known Member
Am I sure? Like absolutely and 100% certain? I'm sure it's a mixture of things. However, the fact remains that the banning of neo-Nazi speech, symbols, etc. didn't mean that such thought disappeared and that it couldn't rise again when the times were right for it in Germany. Nor will banning such speech here prevent the thought from rising again when times are right for it.
You can't ban thought and ideas. You can't ban ideology. You never could. It's never worked. You can try to control behaviour, but you can't ban the ideas behind the behaviour. (I might add that the banning of the individuals you've mentioned from WC2 was a behavioural issue more than anything to do with their words or ideas. As I say - behaviour can be controlled.)
And if you're in Group B and you have the ability to try to silence Group A, then how can you reasonably object when Group A finally has the ability to try to silence you and the rest of Group B?
Many would argue that the best weapon against objectionable thought is to simply let it be proclaimed for all the world to hear and then counter it or mock it.
I get that. But how far is too outlandish? What differentiates a budding neo-nazi movement - with violent history - from any other terror group? Can they all speak at universities? Can't universities reserve the right to say "No. You're a threat to the good in this country and to the gains made by a lot of struggle for a long time - you are not welcome here in a place that fosters social justice and equality if your goal is to undermine this place and its ideals ." I think they should be able to say no to neo nazis.
All the worlds a stage and there has been many a platform given or taken by some of the most brutal leaders in history. All of their stories began in plain view of the whole world and took hold while the rest of us held our tongues while they were allowed free expression, until major damage and extensive loss of lives were lost. One doesn't have to rely on Hitler to prove this point There's Idi Amin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Isis, Farc, etc.... Very dangerous groups born out of an ideology gone unchecked and in some cases also having the power to change laws to make it easier to wipe out those who, too late, objected.
I don't agree on giving anyone a platform for hate in order to know where it is, this allows it to grow just as much as if it remains covert but at least the law will remain intact that reflects order and the ability to fight it. Never forget how Yugoslavia erupted into a civil war that took years to get under control. No one living there could probably have imagined the harm they would instill on those they used to consider their neighbour.
To me, giving platforms to hate even in a university, is just a microcosm of the world. Surely we should be allowed to trust in our ability to know hate when we hear it and shut it down. I'd rather deal with a few pockets than allow hate to use the stage as a recruitment tool more or less the same as Isis has used Youtube.
I don't agree on giving anyone a platform for hate in order to know where it is, this allows it to grow just as much as if it remains covert but at least the law will remain intact that reflects order and the ability to fight it. Never forget how Yugoslavia erupted into a civil war that took years to get under control. No one living there could probably have imagined the harm they would instill on those they used to consider their neighbour.
To me, giving platforms to hate even in a university, is just a microcosm of the world. Surely we should be allowed to trust in our ability to know hate when we hear it and shut it down. I'd rather deal with a few pockets than allow hate to use the stage as a recruitment tool more or less the same as Isis has used Youtube.
chansen
Had a point all along
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Kimmio, you can't ban ideas. You can't kill them with bullets, either.
Ideas that use wonky logic are beaten by better logic - white supremacy, for example. Ideas that aren't based on logic at all, can be mocked into oblivion - religion, for example. If you try to ban either, it looks like you're scared of competing ideas, and you give that idea energy and move it underground where it can gain strength.
We need ideas out in the open. We need real discussions about them. I want neo-nazis to speak. I want Ann Coulter to talk on campuses. I love it when Pat Robertson goes on TV. I smile when unsafe posts. I want there to be a dialogue and response to each one. Sometimes these people require a measured rebuttal. Sometimes, you can do it with humour. But what you don't do is silence them, because that's what they want. The alt-right is loving any picture or video they can find of anyone they can tie to Antifa being violent against them. They feed off of the attempt to silence them. They rally around every cancelled appearance by their leaders. They downplay or ignore every time their leaders are look foolish or are argued into the ground.
Let them come, let them speak, have them leave as laughingstocks.
Ideas that use wonky logic are beaten by better logic - white supremacy, for example. Ideas that aren't based on logic at all, can be mocked into oblivion - religion, for example. If you try to ban either, it looks like you're scared of competing ideas, and you give that idea energy and move it underground where it can gain strength.
We need ideas out in the open. We need real discussions about them. I want neo-nazis to speak. I want Ann Coulter to talk on campuses. I love it when Pat Robertson goes on TV. I smile when unsafe posts. I want there to be a dialogue and response to each one. Sometimes these people require a measured rebuttal. Sometimes, you can do it with humour. But what you don't do is silence them, because that's what they want. The alt-right is loving any picture or video they can find of anyone they can tie to Antifa being violent against them. They feed off of the attempt to silence them. They rally around every cancelled appearance by their leaders. They downplay or ignore every time their leaders are look foolish or are argued into the ground.
Let them come, let them speak, have them leave as laughingstocks.
They don't use logic, when they use troll tactics. Ann Coulter uses biting cynical insults (which are often extremely racist and misogynist), and responds to questions, to serious debate, with more of the same. It was different when she wasn't supporting people close to the POTUS who are promoting a white supremacist agenda. Like Trump, when she was just known for her sensational TV appearances we could laugh at her and how absurd she is. It's less funny now. Her "jokes" demeaning immigrants and suppressing women are harder to disarm and they are now an attempt to incubate an agenda in the places that most affect new generations' cultural and political thought.. She's so over the top that she would make a professor repackaging similar racial supremacy ideas, more civilly or academically, sound reasonable.
Or, universities could just ban them from speaking there - they have plenty of places to use their voices. Ann Coulter has highly lucrative books and what she's all about is already well covered. Trump in power has exponentially increased the power of her views. That, I don't think people are getting. She's in a different position of influence now. Different from all the years we've known her as an extreme celebrity pundit. She is elite establishment and a shill for the WH agenda in league with Bannon, etc. Let them speak to their echo chambers. Don't pollute universities and incubate a nefarious agenda there. I'm sure the Nazis did the same - their target audience, students, is exactly who they want to influence. Who better than the next generation of thinkers turned ideologues?... and when they amassed enough power and support, universities suppressed all other views but nazi views.
I'd say "don't give them an inch because they'll take a mile."
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Always, and these outliers are the ones who wish to push the envelope. The Andrea Dworkin of political positions...
Your reference to Andrea Dworkin makes me wonder how she's coming up in your mind. I recently saw an alt-right comment using Andrea Dworkin to demean women.