TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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Northwind said:
I never said anything about supporting brainwashing to support anyone. Frankly the "white nationalist agenda" is not as all encompassing as you would suggest. Letting it get some airtime, shows that more people are against that than for it.

To be clear, what I said is that the techniques that Scott Adams outlines are used by all sides. Anytime we are trying to put forth a narrative, we are using at least some of those techniques. We buy products because of those techniques. They are not inherently good or bad. They are techniques.



How does this question relate to the discussion? Good and evil exist.



This question feels like a trap this morning.

I am exposed to all kinds of beliefs because of the province in which I live, and because of my work. We cannot silence certain speech totally. I personally do not want to live in a bubble of people who think as I do. In fact, it's not an option for me at this point anyway. I have learned more from people on the other end of the spectrum than I am. I would rather find common ground somehow, and go from there. Of course, that is more challenging, and arguably not possible with some. Who knows though when it will work. There was a man who was a former neo-Nazi. His views were changed by the people quietly protesting what he and his group were saying. If he had been shut down, he would have felt more justified with his beliefs that white men have no power anymore.
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I don't want to live in a bubble with people exactly the same either - but a common human decency, and commitment to equality - which are not mutually exclusive values - would be preferable. Not all ideas are good ideas.

Yes, more people are against it. But it has a direct line to And complicit support from the WH now. Which gives it more power, without anybody making public hate speeches, let alone with them doing so, than in decades. That's new.

I think Scott Adams is brainwashing people - just another tool in the toolkit sending people further right, to the fringe.
 
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Kimmio said:
Yes, more people are against it. But it has a direct line to And complicit support from the WH now. Which gives it more power, without anybody making public hate speeches, let alone with them doing so, than in decades. That's new.
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Okay then. I stand by my views.


Kimmio said:
I think Scott Adams is brainwashing people - just another tool in the toolkit sending people further right, to the fringe.
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So you've said several times. You've been very clear on that. I think @BetteTheRed says it best.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Whereas I think Scott Adams is simply showing the rather bemused left how the right got to where it has.
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There are several converging factors involved in how the far right got to where it has.

If most of his following were not alt-right Trump supporters I might agree that that's all he's doing. If he didn't retweet alt-right figures' comments, and support their arguments, I might agree. But I think he's become a tool - one of several propaganda tools -in the alt-right agenda toolkit. I think he's probably doing it more for himself, and his own ego - similar to Trump himself - but he's a tool nonetheless. He's showing how he picks up alt-right supporters - if you look from the outside and don't fall into his quicksand. The proof is in the result.
 
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Northwind said:
Okay then. I stand by my views.




So you've said several times. You've been very clear on that. I think @BetteTheRed says it best.
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My view stands that we don't need the new establishment that has come about, with the power it already has, to be incubating its views in universities. They are antithetical to critical thinking and progress. We already know who they are and what ideas they represent. They do not represent a counterculture for marginalized voices or bright new ideas. Their voices and ideas are available and they have already spoken - all the way into the WH - the highest hall of power in the western world. We can debate their ideas without giving them a stage for celebrity appearances - giving them a stage is redundant - and speaking fees and a chance to sell books. To deny them is a form of protest.
 
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Northwind said:
Universities have become way too safe from what I can see. I am starting to understand the criticism that they are liberal elites, as much as I hate to say that.
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The alt-right are the new establishment elites. They are in the WH with a world agenda. They are not a counterculture or subculture anymore. People don't get that, yet. To have Richard Spencer speak is the equivalent of inviting a high ranking Nazi in 1939. I totally understand why denying someone like him, or Milo - these are all associates of Bannon - would be a counter cultural act of protest itself, coming from the students' request, with the students being the stakeholders shaping the learning - rather than a liberal elite decision. Universities are places to debate and create ideas not incubate hate.
 
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Sorry, Richard Spencer is friends with Steve Miller, another alt-right Trump advisor, and Steve Miller and Bannon go back a while. So...having these alt-right guys come to universities where they can incubate the hateful ideas that threaten the free world - I totally see banning them - like a boycott - as a valid form of protest. We already know what they're about.
 
Northwind said:
Universities have become way too safe from what I can see. I am starting to understand the criticism that they are liberal elites, as much as I hate to say that.
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Yeah bizarre ennit; its kinda like after a life of enjoying dandelions one day I discover they suddenly start biting :eek:
Diversity is ironically decreasing...
The polarization is shoving discussion Farther Left and Farther Right leaving less places for rational people like us to inhabit...less diversity of thought and ideas...
And these radicals and their violence are making it even more difficult for unis to do what they do...so even if a uni hasn't been taken over by the Plague they are having to consider student safety...
Hopefully this doesn't go full Maoism...
I was heartened to hear a recent lecture at Harvard with Charles Murray went very well; apparently Harvard has its own police who are very well trained and his lecture wasn't interrupted nor was he attacked afterwards...its a real shame that the police had to be there to help enforce free speech...
 
Inannawhimsey said:
Yeah bizarre ennit; its kinda like after a life of enjoying dandelions one day I discover they suddenly start biting :eek:
Diversity is ironically decreasing...
The polarization is shoving discussion Farther Left and Farther Right leaving less places for rational people like us to inhabit...less diversity of thought and idea
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Sad isn't it.
 
Kimmio said:
Universities are places to debate and create ideas not incubate hate
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Universities have become largely liberal. Most of the professors in many of them are liberal leaning. Not too many years ago professors were a more balanced mixed between liberal and conservative. Now if a university wants to bring a controversial speaker they have to either hire additional security it just cancel the speech. It is not possible to debate ideas when they are all one sided.
 
Northwind said:
Universities have become largely liberal. Most of the professors in many of them are liberal leaning. Not too many years ago professors were a more balanced mixed between liberal and conservative. Now if a university wants to bring a controversial speaker they have to either hire additional security it just cancel the speech. It is not possible to debate ideas when they are all one sided.
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I think Universities being liberal leaning has been what has allowed diversity - gender equality, LGBT rights, greater equality for people with disabilities - social justice - to thrive more in society. For that reason universities should remain liberal institutions. More centre right, centre, and further left positions are debated all the time. For example, feminism is not monolithic. Right now, centre right positions have disappeared into a void thanks to social and newsmedia manipulation and propaganda , and far right positions - which these speakers represent - are dangerous and undermine the democracy that universities preserve. The far right 'is' undemocratic. Liberalism is democratic at its core. For democratic institutions to give far right authoritarians airtime, welcoming them to the stage, is oxymoronic.
 
Kimmio you are so stuck on your narrative. I'm not convinced you've read any other posts in here, especially if they threaten to take you off script.

Time for me to stop following this thread again. There's no discussion or point

Peace
 
Northwind said:
Kimmio you are so stuck on your narrative. I'm not convinced you've read any other posts in here, especially if they threaten to take you off script.

Time for me to stop following this thread again. There's no discussion or point

Peace
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I think that's what you've done. You will not even think about what I've said.

I think that for lifelong liberal progressives to blame the liberal elite and upend the social progress made at universities - pushing people further to the left, but mostly further to the right, as algorithmic evidence of peoples' leanings today shows - is exactly what the far right wants. They want to dismantle every institution that allows diversity and social justice to survive and thrive.

One of the main reasons Hitler was able to come to power is because the German Burgouise (middle class capitalist liberal elite) and the Marxist working class left - were not able to organize a united resistance against the greater evil coming along - which was Hitler.

The same thing played out in the U.S. Elections when Bernie supporters refused to support Hillary when Bernie lost. And of course, the whole overblown smear campaign orchestrated by the far right fringe media, with the help of Russia - against "Corrupt Hillary" - by manipulating the media landscape the way they did - resulting in the loss of would be centre right supporters - there was not a united force to defeat Trump.

This disunity tactic is being repeated in other institutions - besides elections - it's being repeated in Universities. Don't invite these speakers and neither the far right neo-nazis, nor the far left antifa (some of whom I think are provocateurs/ moles) - have a reason to show up. Barring them would be united front for preserving diversity and democracy - not the other way around.
 
Kimmio said:
I think that's what you've done. You will not even think about what I've said.
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Okay. Frankly I haven't had to read much of what you've said recently, even though I have read your posts. You have repeated a variation of the same thing for several pages now.
 
As for safe spaces - allowing neo nazis to speak in lecture halls of higher education is going too far.

I agree that the university itself cannot be 'too safe' for the exchange of ideas to take place - but neonazis and/ or extreme misogynists of the alt-left is off the rails. But I agree with James Turk that carving out individual safe spaces for various marginalized groups to discuss issues that are facing them, amongst themselves is still a good idea.
 
Kimmio, don't suppose there's any chance you've ever been on a debating team? As it should be structured, students are coached in how to present arguments from more than one side of an issue. If you can't argue your point well with an opponent, your opinion needs some thinking out.

And you can't, ever, just decide that if people don't agree with you, they should shut up. Life doesn't work that way; people keep talking. You need the right in order to have the left. There has to be a balance. You need to look at, and analyze history, before predicting into future.
 
Northwind said:
Okay. Frankly I haven't had to read much of what you've said recently, even though I have read your posts. You have repeated a variation of the same thing for several pages now.
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Arguing why universities should remain liberal was an additional point you skimmed over. So was the point about what happened in Germany to allow Hitler to thrive.
 
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