Who Inhabited the World First? Satan or Humans?
- Thread starter Waterfall
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Isaiah 14:12-15
Fall of Satan
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn,
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart;
I will ascend the to the heavens,
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
I will sit enthroned on the Mount of Assembly,
On the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon,
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds,
I will make myself like the most high.
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
Fall of Satan
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn,
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart;
I will ascend the to the heavens,
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
I will sit enthroned on the Mount of Assembly,
On the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon,
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds,
I will make myself like the most high.
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
Don't really think it matters.
Earth was created to be the domain of physical Creation to which Satan does not belong.
Isaiah 14: 12-15 in its context does not identify Satan as the one falling but rather is quite mocking of the King of Babylon and the whole poem against the King of Babylon is found in Isaiah 14: 4b-23.
Earth is not the realm of the dead.
Alright, fair enough, but did God give Satan authority over the earth?
Waterfall,
Rev. John's post reflects the scholarly consensus about Satan/ Lucifer in Isaiah 14. It's amazing that this basic insight is so routinely ignored in modern evangelical teaching. Even more interesting from my perspective is the fact that Satan is never explicitly identified as a fallen angel in Scripture. Yes Satan has angels under his command, but is never actually labelled an angel. It makes one wonder whether Satan is a biblical metaphor for the group mindset of all evil forces in the spiritual realm.
In 2 Corinthians 4:4 Paul identifies Satan as "the God of this world" and Ecclesiastes 9:11 teaches that "all are victims of time and Chance." Chance implies events that happen apart from divine control or micro-management. One of the problems in using the OT to clarify the scope of divine sovereignty and control is that the OT does not clearly distinguish between the active and permission will of God.
Rev. John's post reflects the scholarly consensus about Satan/ Lucifer in Isaiah 14. It's amazing that this basic insight is so routinely ignored in modern evangelical teaching. Even more interesting from my perspective is the fact that Satan is never explicitly identified as a fallen angel in Scripture. Yes Satan has angels under his command, but is never actually labelled an angel. It makes one wonder whether Satan is a biblical metaphor for the group mindset of all evil forces in the spiritual realm.
In 2 Corinthians 4:4 Paul identifies Satan as "the God of this world" and Ecclesiastes 9:11 teaches that "all are victims of time and Chance." Chance implies events that happen apart from divine control or micro-management. One of the problems in using the OT to clarify the scope of divine sovereignty and control is that the OT does not clearly distinguish between the active and permission will of God.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Many/most of our beliefs about "Lucifer" have a lot more basis in Milton than in the bible.
Our orthodox "Satan" figure bears little resemblance to the more Loki-like Ha Shatan (the Adversary) of Judaism.
The whole thing lays Christianity even more open to the charges of polytheism than already exist in its evolved theology.
Our orthodox "Satan" figure bears little resemblance to the more Loki-like Ha Shatan (the Adversary) of Judaism.
The whole thing lays Christianity even more open to the charges of polytheism than already exist in its evolved theology.
Alas but Milton and Dante made some people question ... or gave rise to critical conceptions ... thus the world became enlightened about departure from Dark Age BS ... it flew like a missal ... with some .. with others ... knot a chance of looking into the tree ... the Woodsman departed as Wodan ... all that was left was the essence of pining ... and totems ... a type of icon ... one representing the great I ... the beholder looking over your shoulder ... MOG ... could this be virtue?
That's Kali Jah ... buried in song, Dan's and Mello Deis ... in the last swing ...
That's Kali Jah ... buried in song, Dan's and Mello Deis ... in the last swing ...
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
Complicated answer. It hinges on what we mean when we say, "this world." There are two basic understandings, Creation or the present age.
With respect to Creation we never read that God has given Satan authority over Creation. Humanity is given the responsibility to steward Creation we are not told that we report directly to anyone but God who is the Creator. That our stewardship, to be blunt, generally sucks has nothing to do with who is ultimately in control of Creation.
With respect to the Present Age that is something which is subject to influence but that is the extent of any authority.
The texts which actually show a dynamic relationship between God and Satan are found in the early chapters of the book of Job where Satan is included in the angels who present themselves before God. Here Satan is an accuser and the primary function appears to be to test individuals to find their breaking point. In the two encounters between Satan and God, Satan posits that Job will turn against God should God ever lift protections placed upon Job. God responds by agreeing to lift those protections but refuses to lift the protection that allows Job to be killed.
Satan, failing to prove his hypothesis twice does not come back for a third time and there is nothing in the dialogue which indicates that anyone is particularly surprised of offended by his appearing before God with the other angels.
A lot of Christian thought has risen up which builds up the mythos of Satan as actual challenger to God. Even if we were to give in to such a notion we are forced, by scripture to recognize that God alone could withstand the might of all the angels combined as their Creator. So even if we take God and Satan off the board the accounting given places angels at a 2 to 1 advantage over demons. Returning God and Satan to the board gives the Angels an invincible advantage.
Which just means the final battle is already marked in God's win column. The people of God have nothing to actually worry about.
That doesn't mean we aren't so confident as to have no doubts and it would appear, based only on observation that it is in this area where the demonic experiences some brief success.
Texts refer to spiritual beings as princes and principalities, thrones and dominions and the like. This suggests that at some level spiritual beings, whether demon or angel attempt to exert some authority over geographies, emotionalities or other corporate bodies. Which is an influence level effort at best.
Everything Created belongs to the Creator and will ultimately be held accountable by the Creator. Scripture is clear on that when it says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
Which is very big picture stuff.
The small picture is how we paint our experience and understanding. Some need the bad things in life to have great meaning. It isn't enough that I hit a moose driving home a little over a week ago. It had to be a miracle that I emerged from the collision alive or unscathed. As if Satan led that moose into my path. The anxiety I felt over mortally wounding her is interpreted as Satan's last gasp, having failed to kill me he is now trying to use my emotions to distance me from God.
Because nothing could ever be so simple as moose stepping in front of a car and getting hit because of it. And when that happens there is generally a lot of damage and the driver doesn't always get to walk away.
From a Stewardship of Creation perspective it amounts to poor stewardship on my part. I knew that it was dark. I knew that I was in the middle of the densest population of Moose on the Island. I was driving the posted limit but I could have adjusted that based on the other two factors and I didn't. Because I didn't the population sharply fell by one cow calf. Not great stewardship. Reason enough to feel bad, moreso that she suffered until she could be put down by somebody with the proper tools for the job.
I suppose any tempter/tester could use that event to try and sow seeds of doubt and if my general outlook was one which afforded Satan a lot of direct influence over Creation such testing could provoke a "God why did you allow this?" response.
I didn't have one and if Satan is half as clever as is generally given credit for being Satan would have known that was a waste of a young moose.
Considering the book of Job it is demonstrably proven that Satan is not always a good judge of character so it is still possible that he asked for permission and was given it up to a point. I doubt I register on anyone's radar as being similar to Job in character so I wouldn't represent a satisfactory victory if pushed to a breaking point.
And considering myself fairly to be less steadfast than Job that would be sufficient reason for God not to allow similar levels of testing.
I do believe in the demonic and I do believe I have experienced it. And if my experience is genuine the only authority demonstrated in those encounters was an ability to provoke a fear response. I know that panic is a game loser and I stop everything when I feel it start to rise. Which takes me out of any game if one is being played.
I suspect Satan has other tools available. So far I don't appear to be worth the effort of testing by those other means.
So, all things considered I don't believe Satan has any real authority over any place within the bounds of Creation. Right now Satan has a place that may be bigger or smaller than we imagine or pretend to understand and from Job we gain an understanding that Satan is granted some leeway to influence. Satan might be a big, ferocious dog. He is still a big, ferocious dog on a leash that will hold so the most important thing is to not get within reach of the leash. Probably why he is described as a roaring lion. Of course understanding what the purpose of the lion's roar is for helps with that imagery.
Is Satan just the shadow of the previous dogma ... and thus still on the leash for critical rational?
We had a dog like that once ... could drag most people down the street ... unimpeded ...
Should mortals discuss eternal things? Especially without cognizance of such a far reaching expression as infinite that contains all else ... including angels dead and alive?
Tis philosophical beyond the epistemic fixations ... Hoo dath unque IDe ?
Thus the uncertainty still flows ... like Eris ...
We had a dog like that once ... could drag most people down the street ... unimpeded ...
Should mortals discuss eternal things? Especially without cognizance of such a far reaching expression as infinite that contains all else ... including angels dead and alive?
Tis philosophical beyond the epistemic fixations ... Hoo dath unque IDe ?
Thus the uncertainty still flows ... like Eris ...
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm imagining archaeologists puzzling over a radiometric-dated, million-year-old pitchfork.
And who ever raised the aspiration towards the formation of a God ... some alien burger made out of noodle like substance?
Mines are odd things ... some of them sparkle inside if you carry a torch there ... el Door a'do ... no chit ... the memos were are sent off by Twitter as formed by the great Role model in trumpeting ...
unsafe
Well-Known Member
This is my View on this
I always thought that God needed a Satan to gives us free choice to choose good or evil ------My thoughts on this subject have changed sine I have done some research on Who created Satan ------
To answer your OP question ----So who lived here first? Humans or Satan?
The Scripture says that God created Humans on the last day ---all was in place for Adam and Eve in the Garden ---so for me the Angels were created before Humans -----Lucifer became Satan ----
Now this is what I have come to Spiritually discern by and through The Holy Spirit about Lucifer who turned into Satan ------This is now What I personally believe ----
All angels have free will to choose to obey God or not like we do ---- ------ verse 6
Jude 5-6 (TLB)
5 My answer to them is: Remember this fact—which you know already—that the Lord saved a whole nation of people out of the land of Egypt and then killed every one of them who did not trust and obey him. 6 And I remind you of those angels who were once pure and holy but turned to a life of sin. Now God has them chained up in prisons of darkness, waiting for the judgment day.
Angels can choose to fall into sin as well-----
2 Peter 2 GW ----4 God didn’t spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.
God created Eden and all that was in it ----including Humans ---God said that it was very good
Genesis 1:31 (GW)
31 And God saw everything that he had made and that it was very good. There was evening, then morning—the sixth day.
So if Satan was already in the Garden --God would not have said that it was all very good -----So this is what I have come to understand for me ---Lucifer was in the Garden and I believe he was there to Bless Adam and Eve and minister to them by God authority ----it makes no sence to me now that God would create a Satan and put him in the garden to deceive now from what I have studied ----that goes against all that God stands for in my view ---
Ezekiel 28 --to me is prophesying the down fall of Lucifer and refers to in my view ---if this scripture is referring to a human King --then I believe it addresses the Spirit behind this King -who then would be Satan ----which would make prefect sense to tie the 2 together ----
Ezekiel 28 verses 13 GW ---
13 You were in Eden, God’s garden.
You were covered with every kind of precious stone:
red quartz, topaz, crystal,
beryl, onyx, gray quartz, sapphire,
turquoise, and emerald.
Your settings and your sockets
were made of gold when you were created.
This verse to me describes Lucifer ------who was in the Garden ----there was no human King of Tyre in the Garden of Eden that is for sure ---if you read more on the city of Tyre it was full of religious idolatry and immoral sex ----so if the King here is human Satan is the Spirit behind the motivation of this King ----in my view
I personally believe that Lucifer's transgression happened in the garden ----not in heaven
Ezekiel 28:14-15 --- NKJ
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
I personally believe that Lucifer understood that when God spoke it because so and when a Covenant is made God would never break it -----and when God gave Adam and Eve total dominion over this earth ---I believe that is when Lucifer became envious and wanted to rule like God and become bigger than God ----at that moment that pride and envy took over he because Satan -----and was in the Garden at that time ---he was not in heaven and kicked down to earth as I originally thought ---I believe now that he became Satan while in Eden ----and thought if he could tempt the 2 to disobey God he would gain control over this earth ----and was not allowed back into God's Holy Place ----and I believe some of the angles made a decision of their free will to join Satan ---I believe Lucifer lost his angelic power the minute he transgressed against God ---
Isaiah 14 verses 12-14 GW ---to me describe WHY Lucifer became Satan ----
12 How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn!
How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!
13 You thought,
“I’ll go up to heaven and set up my throne above God’s stars.
I’ll sit on the mountain far away in the north
where the gods assemble.
14 I’ll go above the top of the clouds.
I’ll be like the Most High.”
So in my view I see ----Lucifer made himself Satan by wanting to be God ----pride - greed and envy turned a beloved Cherub Angel into an evil Satan --
This is just how I personally see it Now ----and for me it makes perfect sense ----others may disagree --
I always thought that God needed a Satan to gives us free choice to choose good or evil ------My thoughts on this subject have changed sine I have done some research on Who created Satan ------
To answer your OP question ----So who lived here first? Humans or Satan?
The Scripture says that God created Humans on the last day ---all was in place for Adam and Eve in the Garden ---so for me the Angels were created before Humans -----Lucifer became Satan ----
Now this is what I have come to Spiritually discern by and through The Holy Spirit about Lucifer who turned into Satan ------This is now What I personally believe ----
All angels have free will to choose to obey God or not like we do ---- ------ verse 6
Jude 5-6 (TLB)
5 My answer to them is: Remember this fact—which you know already—that the Lord saved a whole nation of people out of the land of Egypt and then killed every one of them who did not trust and obey him. 6 And I remind you of those angels who were once pure and holy but turned to a life of sin. Now God has them chained up in prisons of darkness, waiting for the judgment day.
Angels can choose to fall into sin as well-----
2 Peter 2 GW ----4 God didn’t spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.
God created Eden and all that was in it ----including Humans ---God said that it was very good
Genesis 1:31 (GW)
31 And God saw everything that he had made and that it was very good. There was evening, then morning—the sixth day.
So if Satan was already in the Garden --God would not have said that it was all very good -----So this is what I have come to understand for me ---Lucifer was in the Garden and I believe he was there to Bless Adam and Eve and minister to them by God authority ----it makes no sence to me now that God would create a Satan and put him in the garden to deceive now from what I have studied ----that goes against all that God stands for in my view ---
Ezekiel 28 --to me is prophesying the down fall of Lucifer and refers to in my view ---if this scripture is referring to a human King --then I believe it addresses the Spirit behind this King -who then would be Satan ----which would make prefect sense to tie the 2 together ----
Ezekiel 28 verses 13 GW ---
13 You were in Eden, God’s garden.
You were covered with every kind of precious stone:
red quartz, topaz, crystal,
beryl, onyx, gray quartz, sapphire,
turquoise, and emerald.
Your settings and your sockets
were made of gold when you were created.
This verse to me describes Lucifer ------who was in the Garden ----there was no human King of Tyre in the Garden of Eden that is for sure ---if you read more on the city of Tyre it was full of religious idolatry and immoral sex ----so if the King here is human Satan is the Spirit behind the motivation of this King ----in my view
I personally believe that Lucifer's transgression happened in the garden ----not in heaven
Ezekiel 28:14-15 --- NKJ
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
I personally believe that Lucifer understood that when God spoke it because so and when a Covenant is made God would never break it -----and when God gave Adam and Eve total dominion over this earth ---I believe that is when Lucifer became envious and wanted to rule like God and become bigger than God ----at that moment that pride and envy took over he because Satan -----and was in the Garden at that time ---he was not in heaven and kicked down to earth as I originally thought ---I believe now that he became Satan while in Eden ----and thought if he could tempt the 2 to disobey God he would gain control over this earth ----and was not allowed back into God's Holy Place ----and I believe some of the angles made a decision of their free will to join Satan ---I believe Lucifer lost his angelic power the minute he transgressed against God ---
Isaiah 14 verses 12-14 GW ---to me describe WHY Lucifer became Satan ----
12 How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn!
How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!
13 You thought,
“I’ll go up to heaven and set up my throne above God’s stars.
I’ll sit on the mountain far away in the north
where the gods assemble.
14 I’ll go above the top of the clouds.
I’ll be like the Most High.”
So in my view I see ----Lucifer made himself Satan by wanting to be God ----pride - greed and envy turned a beloved Cherub Angel into an evil Satan --
This is just how I personally see it Now ----and for me it makes perfect sense ----others may disagree --
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Okay, let's start with the assumption of a god that is all-powerful, creator of the solar system, of not the universe itself. Maybe as a class project. Probably got an A.
Put yourself in His shoes. You've got this amazing creation, best universe ever, way better than the stupid universe that your sister created. Now you want to play with it. So you decide to create life somewhere, but where? Of the trillions of suns, you pick the small one off to the one side of the Milky Way. Then the little blue-green planet circling it. It's nice. You teacher was particularly fond of that one. This is where you will put people. Well, not at first. You let them grow and evolve. Like a Chia Pet. Then after they become people, you forget about them for 100,000 years or so. Gods are forgetful like that. Then you come down and start appearing and doing tricks to gain their trust. You have a complicated relationship with your creation. They hit their teen years and get all rebellious, so you kill them all and start again. They start at it again, so you actually get one of them pregnant, because if there is one thing that solves a maturity problem, it's an unplanned pregnancy. The bastard kid gets offed because that somehow makes you forgive something that you forgot you had cursed them with in the first place. Satisfied that you've made an impression with the whole killing-your-own-son thing, you leave 2000 years ago. People will continue to worship you and your son (who was you all along - psych!), even though you left nothing behind except some books written by people who weren't even there.
Into all this, insert the whole Satan thing. Would God put Satan here before or after people?
Put yourself in His shoes. You've got this amazing creation, best universe ever, way better than the stupid universe that your sister created. Now you want to play with it. So you decide to create life somewhere, but where? Of the trillions of suns, you pick the small one off to the one side of the Milky Way. Then the little blue-green planet circling it. It's nice. You teacher was particularly fond of that one. This is where you will put people. Well, not at first. You let them grow and evolve. Like a Chia Pet. Then after they become people, you forget about them for 100,000 years or so. Gods are forgetful like that. Then you come down and start appearing and doing tricks to gain their trust. You have a complicated relationship with your creation. They hit their teen years and get all rebellious, so you kill them all and start again. They start at it again, so you actually get one of them pregnant, because if there is one thing that solves a maturity problem, it's an unplanned pregnancy. The bastard kid gets offed because that somehow makes you forgive something that you forgot you had cursed them with in the first place. Satisfied that you've made an impression with the whole killing-your-own-son thing, you leave 2000 years ago. People will continue to worship you and your son (who was you all along - psych!), even though you left nothing behind except some books written by people who weren't even there.
Into all this, insert the whole Satan thing. Would God put Satan here before or after people?
I had never realized that Satan was never labelled as an angel in the Bible. Where did that come from? I have heard many ministers refer to Satan as an angel.
Interesting story, and even more interesting is that God sounds like you.
There are many stories we can create when we need to fill in the blanks. Another would be to wonder why we were placed on an obscure ball in the universe surrounded by an abyss with no oxygen, and of all creatures, Satan (or evil )is allowed to share this space with us. We are supposedly watched by the Creator and the only "way out" is to be randomly chosen.
You say that God sends angels that sin to hell, so why is Satan still roaming the earth IYO? Or do you believe Satan wasn't an angel?This is my View on this
I always thought that God needed a Satan to gives us free choice to choose good or evil ------My thoughts on this subject have changed sine I have done some research on Who created Satan ------
To answer your OP question ----So who lived here first? Humans or Satan?
The Scripture says that God created Humans on the last day ---all was in place for Adam and Eve in the Garden ---so for me the Angels were created before Humans -----Lucifer became Satan ----
Now this is what I have come to Spiritually discern by and through The Holy Spirit about Lucifer who turned into Satan ------This is now What I personally believe ----
All angels have free will to choose to obey God or not like we do ---- ------ verse 6
Jude 5-6 (TLB)
5 My answer to them is: Remember this fact—which you know already—that the Lord saved a whole nation of people out of the land of Egypt and then killed every one of them who did not trust and obey him. 6 And I remind you of those angels who were once pure and holy but turned to a life of sin. Now God has them chained up in prisons of darkness, waiting for the judgment day.
Angels can choose to fall into sin as well-----
2 Peter 2 GW ----4 God didn’t spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.
God created Eden and all that was in it ----including Humans ---God said that it was very good
Genesis 1:31 (GW)
31 And God saw everything that he had made and that it was very good. There was evening, then morning—the sixth day.
So if Satan was already in the Garden --God would not have said that it was all very good -----So this is what I have come to understand for me ---Lucifer was in the Garden and I believe he was there to Bless Adam and Eve and minister to them by God authority ----it makes no sence to me now that God would create a Satan and put him in the garden to deceive now from what I have studied ----that goes against all that God stands for in my view ---
Ezekiel 28 --to me is prophesying the down fall of Lucifer and refers to in my view ---if this scripture is referring to a human King --then I believe it addresses the Spirit behind this King -who then would be Satan ----which would make prefect sense to tie the 2 together ----
Ezekiel 28 verses 13 GW ---
13 You were in Eden, God’s garden.
You were covered with every kind of precious stone:
red quartz, topaz, crystal,
beryl, onyx, gray quartz, sapphire,
turquoise, and emerald.
Your settings and your sockets
were made of gold when you were created.
This verse to me describes Lucifer ------who was in the Garden ----there was no human King of Tyre in the Garden of Eden that is for sure ---if you read more on the city of Tyre it was full of religious idolatry and immoral sex ----so if the King here is human Satan is the Spirit behind the motivation of this King ----in my view
I personally believe that Lucifer's transgression happened in the garden ----not in heaven
Ezekiel 28:14-15 --- NKJ
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
I personally believe that Lucifer understood that when God spoke it because so and when a Covenant is made God would never break it -----and when God gave Adam and Eve total dominion over this earth ---I believe that is when Lucifer became envious and wanted to rule like God and become bigger than God ----at that moment that pride and envy took over he because Satan -----and was in the Garden at that time ---he was not in heaven and kicked down to earth as I originally thought ---I believe now that he became Satan while in Eden ----and thought if he could tempt the 2 to disobey God he would gain control over this earth ----and was not allowed back into God's Holy Place ----and I believe some of the angles made a decision of their free will to join Satan ---I believe Lucifer lost his angelic power the minute he transgressed against God ---
Isaiah 14 verses 12-14 GW ---to me describe WHY Lucifer became Satan ----
12 How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn!
How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!
13 You thought,
“I’ll go up to heaven and set up my throne above God’s stars.
I’ll sit on the mountain far away in the north
where the gods assemble.
14 I’ll go above the top of the clouds.
I’ll be like the Most High.”
So in my view I see ----Lucifer made himself Satan by wanting to be God ----pride - greed and envy turned a beloved Cherub Angel into an evil Satan --
This is just how I personally see it Now ----and for me it makes perfect sense ----others may disagree --
Yeah, I pretty much agree here with Gotquestions.