TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?
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Not in my mind....if you're violent, you are on the side of the violent.....period.
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
Uncontrolled capitalism is the wild beast among us. That wild beast owns the politicians. It's an old formula used by every empire I ever heard The device is intended to divert people from their real problem. It has been used by the British empire, Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, by the US empire since its origins. They all use racial hatred to cover up the uncontrolled nature of the capitalism.
I'm not attacking capitalism here. I'm talking how capitalists have used racism to occupy people's fears and hatreds, and to bury the need for all societies to control institutions and rulers.
Hitler and Mussolini were both ardent capitalists. That's why western capitalists supported them for so long. They were the barrier against socialism or communism (the latter group was actually more akin to uncontrolled capitalism.)
George Washington was a capitalists, and probably the biggest one in the U.S. He wanted the destruction of native peoples so open the land for speculators like themselves. Britain did not want to spend more money on wars in North America. There were many such economic motives in the American revolution.
The swastika flags and KKK members in the recent U.S. riot are not at all surprising. Such groups have always been useful to distract attention from our real issues.
Ever notice how the people we are told to hate are always evil? Yes. It's in their blood. And so we (all of us) have been taught to hate Jews or Germans or italians or Muslims at various times - whatever group is convenient.
We don't call most of our hate-mongers Naziis or fascists because those two categories are still evil. But the reality is that Nazi and fascist methods are still political staples among us. And its their most eager disciples are those who want uncontrolled capitalism.
The problem is not Trump. The problem is that the U.S. has taken the place of Hitler's Germany. It has invaded some 70 countries since 1945, and it has killed uncounted millions. And popular hatreds are what U.S. governments and capitalists gets what they want. Keep up to date. The fascists and naziis today are our neighbours.
I'm not attacking capitalism here. I'm talking how capitalists have used racism to occupy people's fears and hatreds, and to bury the need for all societies to control institutions and rulers.
Hitler and Mussolini were both ardent capitalists. That's why western capitalists supported them for so long. They were the barrier against socialism or communism (the latter group was actually more akin to uncontrolled capitalism.)
George Washington was a capitalists, and probably the biggest one in the U.S. He wanted the destruction of native peoples so open the land for speculators like themselves. Britain did not want to spend more money on wars in North America. There were many such economic motives in the American revolution.
The swastika flags and KKK members in the recent U.S. riot are not at all surprising. Such groups have always been useful to distract attention from our real issues.
Ever notice how the people we are told to hate are always evil? Yes. It's in their blood. And so we (all of us) have been taught to hate Jews or Germans or italians or Muslims at various times - whatever group is convenient.
We don't call most of our hate-mongers Naziis or fascists because those two categories are still evil. But the reality is that Nazi and fascist methods are still political staples among us. And its their most eager disciples are those who want uncontrolled capitalism.
The problem is not Trump. The problem is that the U.S. has taken the place of Hitler's Germany. It has invaded some 70 countries since 1945, and it has killed uncounted millions. And popular hatreds are what U.S. governments and capitalists gets what they want. Keep up to date. The fascists and naziis today are our neighbours.
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
And we have helped them.
So, okay, who's the next target for our hatred?
So, okay, who's the next target for our hatred?
Same here...but nobody who is peacefully resisting white supremacy at rallies wants to get caught up in the same web as those who are not peacefully resisting white supremacy, do they? So...somehow a dinstinction has to be made on the "left" that denounces those bad characters. And calling them "alt left" might be a way to do that.
It reminds me of Occupy - when folk singers and happy tents, mini libraries and smart lectures were being presented. As the weeks wore on - ominous characters started to show up - they were angry and rough looking, some with mean looking canines at their sides. I used to walk past and check things out, until then.
Then, a few days later a punk band called DOA took the stage to sing at precisely the time a young woman had been found dead of an overdose and was taken away by an ambulance. They had been promoting a safe tent community but I know that there were people concerned and thought there needed to be more intervention to get the dealers away and the addicts into safe treatment. But the movement didn't want any kind of systemic involvement.
Anyway, the police stood down until that incident - the rough characters changed the atmosphere and it was, for safety reasons, time to shut it down.
And that shut down peaceful dissent, too.
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Their violent acts define them.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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How about just calling a spade a spade? Label them "violent extremists" and don't worry which end of the spectrum they are on.
"Alt left" is now useless as a label because it is being slapped on anyone who opposes the "alt right" (also a useless label since it's an attempt by the extremists on the right to avoid the "violent/hateful extremist" or, more pointedly, "Nazi" label) in an attempt to deflect some of the anger at the Nazi/KKK bunch back at their foes.
"Alt left" is now useless as a label because it is being slapped on anyone who opposes the "alt right" (also a useless label since it's an attempt by the extremists on the right to avoid the "violent/hateful extremist" or, more pointedly, "Nazi" label) in an attempt to deflect some of the anger at the Nazi/KKK bunch back at their foes.
Ritafee
Is Being Human
Perhaps a word from someone who was actually in the fray is in order:
CORNEL WEST: Absolutely. You had a number of the courageous students, of all colors, at the University of Virginia who were protesting against the neofascists themselves. The neofascists had their own ammunition. And this is very important to keep in mind, because the police, for the most part, pulled back. The next day, for example, those 20 of us who were standing, many of them clergy, we would have been crushed like cockroaches if it were not for the anarchists and the anti-fascists who approached, over 300, 350 anti-fascists. We just had 20. And we’re singing "This Little light of Mine," you know what I mean? So that the—
AMY GOODMAN: "Antifa" meaning anti-fascist.
CORNEL WEST: The anti-fascists, and then, crucial, the anarchists, because they saved our lives, actually. We would have been completely crushed, and I’ll never forget that. Meaning what? Meaning that you had the police holding back, on the one hand, so we couldn’t even get arrested. We were there to get arrested. We couldn’t get arrested, because the police had pulled back, and just allowing fellow citizens to go at each other, you see, and with all of the consequences that would follow therefrom.
So, in that sense, you know, I think what we’re really seeing, though, Sister Amy, is the American empire in decay, with the rule of big money, with massive militarism, facilitated by the scapegoating of the most vulnerable, of immigrants, Muslims, Jews, Arabs, gay, lesbians, trans and bisexuals, and black folk. The white supremacy was so intense. I’ve never seen that kind of hatred in my life. We stood there, and nine units went by, and looking right in our eyes. And they’re cussing me out, and so forth and so on. They’re lucky I didn’t lose my holy ghost, to tell you the truth, because I wanted to start swinging myself. I’m a Christian, but not a pacifist, you know. But I held back. But that kind of hatred—but that is just the theater. It’s big money. It’s big military. And it’s the way in which this capitalist civilization is leading us toward unbelievable darkness and bleakness. And the beautiful thing is the fightback. It was a beautiful thing to see all the people coming back. But they had more fascists than anarchists, more fascists than fightback.
Cornel West & Rev. Traci Blackmon: Clergy in Charlottesville Were Trapped by Torch-Wielding Nazis | Democracy Now!
Why wait until after those acts happen to define them - if those tactics are not something they disavow using?
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
Will be interesting to see how long it takes for the babies who need to transform their whole world into an alternate reality safe space to turn their gaze upon Mount Rushmore.
chansen
Had a point all along
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That's a good point. "Alt-right" is a self-description by people who don't want to be known as "white supremacists" or "Nazis". "Alt-left" is a name given by the alt-right to people who oppose them, to make them look like the flip side of their extremist coin. There is nothing "alt" about opposing white supremacists. It's a rather normal position for most people to take.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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I've seen pictures of what the mountain looked like before they did the carving. The biggest loss was in its construction. I'm not sure I'd bother destroying it at this point but I'd be quite cool with cutting funding for maintenance and letting nature take its course.
What about Revelation 9:20...?
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Maybe those babies should be hoping and being guided to turn the world into an alternate reality safe space. Just sayin. Maybe you're on the wrong side of history.
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
Well, actually, most people DON'T oppose white supremacy. The British historically have looked down on the non-whites they conquered. That helped to justify the use they made of those people as cheap and even slave labour. And it justified the mass murder of empire. (Another effect it had was to strengthen class lines - still a notable feature of British life.)
Canada has a very long and intense history of racism. We've used it against native peoples, Jews, Italians, Ukrainians, orientals, African Canadians...... And we still use it. When I was a child in Montreal, even Irish-Catholics were ghetto-ized. I can remember visiting a horrible building, a Dickensian pile of brick in the middle of a wasteland. The sign on it said 'Nova Scotia Home for Coloured Children". It could have read "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here".
All of this was very evident across Canada even within the last 30 years. And I think we're going to see a revival of it.
Historically, the economic and political leaders have dipped into that hatred. It wasn't just Hitler who did it. We ALL did it, and we still do.
When Canada invaded AFghanistan, news items portrayed our opponents as 'Evil". Of course. We had no other reason to go to war (except to kiss up to the U.S.) Afghanistan was no threat to Canada - or to the U.S. 9/11 was NOT planned by AFghanistan. And Afghanistan DID offer to arrest bin Laden - to an international court.
The fact is that invasion was planned 6 years BEFORE 9/11. Check the web. It was planned by a very inside, well-connected group called "Project for the New American Century".
So we needed an excuse for war. Easy. Afghanis were evil and terrorist. And so Canadian died for 'their country' while killing people they knew nothing about. Like the Syrians and the iraqis and the Libyans and many others, the west killed millions because we were told that they were evil. It was evil as an inherited trait. Why, those dreadful people were so evil, they shot back when we shot at them.
As for terrorism, the U.S. has been the world leader since 1945. In fact, terrorism became the preferred method of war, especially by bombers, By world war 2, they were deliberately targetting civilians. And in doing so, they were benefitting from a style of warfare first organized by Churchill and the RAF in 1920 with the deliberate mass murder of Kurd civilians. (Well, they weren't white - not really).
Check your news reports. Killings by, say, Syrians commonly mention that the killings were brutal. But, apparently, American bombers dropping thousands of tons of , say, cluster bombs that will go on killing for generations, and chemical poisons that still produce horribly deformed children to this day - well, it's okay. They aren't ever brutal. Nor did I see much in our press about massive American torture though, in fact, it has always been used.
We breathe racism every day. Our political and economic leaders use it to spread racist hatreds. This is exactly what Hitler did.
And, as the Germans did, we fall for it. (And, as in Nazi Germany, most of our churches don't notice it.)
Remember the angry fuss over Omar Khadr? of course. by racial definition, he is evil. Racism is always an effective tool. And our news media do their good work in spreading it.
I'm quite sure that nobody on this list agrees with me. But by wasting our time learning to hate, we are putting off essential changes if we are to survive. For a start, we have to bring big business under control, just like the rest of us. Trump is not the cause of the problem. He's the result of it.
The reality is that Canada is run by big business. That's why it has sent troops (illegally) to AFghanistan, bombers to Libya, and trainers to Syria. That power we have allowed big business to assume is one of the greatest problems we face. Funny how our news media never mention it. And so we go on hating.
Canada has a very long and intense history of racism. We've used it against native peoples, Jews, Italians, Ukrainians, orientals, African Canadians...... And we still use it. When I was a child in Montreal, even Irish-Catholics were ghetto-ized. I can remember visiting a horrible building, a Dickensian pile of brick in the middle of a wasteland. The sign on it said 'Nova Scotia Home for Coloured Children". It could have read "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here".
All of this was very evident across Canada even within the last 30 years. And I think we're going to see a revival of it.
Historically, the economic and political leaders have dipped into that hatred. It wasn't just Hitler who did it. We ALL did it, and we still do.
When Canada invaded AFghanistan, news items portrayed our opponents as 'Evil". Of course. We had no other reason to go to war (except to kiss up to the U.S.) Afghanistan was no threat to Canada - or to the U.S. 9/11 was NOT planned by AFghanistan. And Afghanistan DID offer to arrest bin Laden - to an international court.
The fact is that invasion was planned 6 years BEFORE 9/11. Check the web. It was planned by a very inside, well-connected group called "Project for the New American Century".
So we needed an excuse for war. Easy. Afghanis were evil and terrorist. And so Canadian died for 'their country' while killing people they knew nothing about. Like the Syrians and the iraqis and the Libyans and many others, the west killed millions because we were told that they were evil. It was evil as an inherited trait. Why, those dreadful people were so evil, they shot back when we shot at them.
As for terrorism, the U.S. has been the world leader since 1945. In fact, terrorism became the preferred method of war, especially by bombers, By world war 2, they were deliberately targetting civilians. And in doing so, they were benefitting from a style of warfare first organized by Churchill and the RAF in 1920 with the deliberate mass murder of Kurd civilians. (Well, they weren't white - not really).
Check your news reports. Killings by, say, Syrians commonly mention that the killings were brutal. But, apparently, American bombers dropping thousands of tons of , say, cluster bombs that will go on killing for generations, and chemical poisons that still produce horribly deformed children to this day - well, it's okay. They aren't ever brutal. Nor did I see much in our press about massive American torture though, in fact, it has always been used.
We breathe racism every day. Our political and economic leaders use it to spread racist hatreds. This is exactly what Hitler did.
And, as the Germans did, we fall for it. (And, as in Nazi Germany, most of our churches don't notice it.)
Remember the angry fuss over Omar Khadr? of course. by racial definition, he is evil. Racism is always an effective tool. And our news media do their good work in spreading it.
I'm quite sure that nobody on this list agrees with me. But by wasting our time learning to hate, we are putting off essential changes if we are to survive. For a start, we have to bring big business under control, just like the rest of us. Trump is not the cause of the problem. He's the result of it.
The reality is that Canada is run by big business. That's why it has sent troops (illegally) to AFghanistan, bombers to Libya, and trainers to Syria. That power we have allowed big business to assume is one of the greatest problems we face. Funny how our news media never mention it. And so we go on hating.
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
Oh, the South did not go to war with the North to maintain slavery. And, in fact, Abraham Lincoln was opposed to freeing the slaves early in the war.
WE get fed a lot of phony realities.
WE get fed a lot of phony realities.
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
I wonder if they are going to burn their own bible and delete all memory of it's author.
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
This all seems like the plot of a Star Trek episode, and the Captain is going to have to slap the sense into the crazy people before they ruin everything.
Ooo eee ooo
Captain Trump to the bridge!
Screw the Prime Directive.
Ooo eee ooo
Captain Trump to the bridge!
Screw the Prime Directive.
Yeah - I'm not a fan of social Darwinism - and Definately not a subscriber to any superior race theory. That's tribalism and or sociopathy - primitive yet ugly traits of human behaviour. That's why I think CRISPr should edit/ correct the sociopathy genes if they're going to put a top priority on its use...but that won't happen.
In the kingdom of God - no male or female, no Jew or Gentile, no marriage, no slave or free...then there can't exist, there, the traits of sexism, ableism, tribalism, homophobia or sociopathy.
And I suspect tribalism and sociopathy are largely responsible for much of what prevents that "Kingdom" from being on earth as it is in heaven.
In the kingdom of God - no male or female, no Jew or Gentile, no marriage, no slave or free...then there can't exist, there, the traits of sexism, ableism, tribalism, homophobia or sociopathy.
And I suspect tribalism and sociopathy are largely responsible for much of what prevents that "Kingdom" from being on earth as it is in heaven.
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But showing up to beat those you oppose with clubs is not the normal position for most people to take - so calling those ones "alt-left" de-normalizes that behaviour - which is growing and hopefully can be stopped, denounced, instead of growing more.
Whoever's anti-racist and showing up with clubs to beat on people, even people who are racists - deserves the "alt" title, imo.
chansen
Had a point all along
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Antifa include a bunch of anarchists who smash windows and throw punches and eggs at people. They are not harmless. They are violent.
But they do not call themselves "alt-left".
The "alt-right" has media sources like Breitbart who claim to be the voice of the alt-right. They identify as alt-right because all their other names carry more baggage. These groups have taken to calling Antifa and the anarchists among them who are prone to violence the "alt-left".
This is like how some people will tell you you're not a Christian, because you don't believe correctly, according to them. I've always said that if you are simply a fan of Jesus and you self-identify as a Christian, that's good enough for me.
What we have now, is you insisting a group that wants to be part of Antifa and may be more accurately described as "anarchists", and who at least aren't going around killing people, should not be allowed to self-identify.
Meanwhile, the white supremacists actually being more violent and shouting racist slogans and occasionally killing people, are being allowed to name their opposition without the consent of their opposition. And you've decided you want to agree with the label attached by the white supremacists.
Yes, some of these Antifa/anarchists are violent jerks. But in their case, there are good people among them who aren't throwing eggs or fists. They stand against racists and self-described Nazis. In Charlottesville, the group hit by the car driven by a neo-Nazi were peaceful. Meanwhile, everyone on the other side was either a Nazi, or didn't mind hanging with Nazis.
Do you see the difference? Because you're allowing the self-described "alt-right" side that hangs with Nazis, the right to define the side which actually has good people on it and is at least committing less and lesser violence. And this definition contributes to the false equivalence narrative that Trump is trying to push. He wants to see both sides blamed for the deaths and injuries, because one side is "alt-right", and one side is "alt-left", so that means both sides are supposedly to blame. It's false equivalence, and you bought it.
But they do not call themselves "alt-left".
The "alt-right" has media sources like Breitbart who claim to be the voice of the alt-right. They identify as alt-right because all their other names carry more baggage. These groups have taken to calling Antifa and the anarchists among them who are prone to violence the "alt-left".
This is like how some people will tell you you're not a Christian, because you don't believe correctly, according to them. I've always said that if you are simply a fan of Jesus and you self-identify as a Christian, that's good enough for me.
What we have now, is you insisting a group that wants to be part of Antifa and may be more accurately described as "anarchists", and who at least aren't going around killing people, should not be allowed to self-identify.
Meanwhile, the white supremacists actually being more violent and shouting racist slogans and occasionally killing people, are being allowed to name their opposition without the consent of their opposition. And you've decided you want to agree with the label attached by the white supremacists.
Yes, some of these Antifa/anarchists are violent jerks. But in their case, there are good people among them who aren't throwing eggs or fists. They stand against racists and self-described Nazis. In Charlottesville, the group hit by the car driven by a neo-Nazi were peaceful. Meanwhile, everyone on the other side was either a Nazi, or didn't mind hanging with Nazis.
Do you see the difference? Because you're allowing the self-described "alt-right" side that hangs with Nazis, the right to define the side which actually has good people on it and is at least committing less and lesser violence. And this definition contributes to the false equivalence narrative that Trump is trying to push. He wants to see both sides blamed for the deaths and injuries, because one side is "alt-right", and one side is "alt-left", so that means both sides are supposedly to blame. It's false equivalence, and you bought it.