Talking to God Through Jesus

[chansen]

There is no contradiction.
Both statements can be true at the same time.

I think these are called "alternative truths". Just pick the one you want to be true.

 

[Ritafee]

Right ... In the name of Jesus not In the name of Science. In the name of Jesus I pray that people will wake up and stop excusing cruel and inhumane behavior as acceptable if it is done in the name of science.

 

[Waterfall]

Right ... In the name of Jesus not In the name of Science. In the name of Jesus I pray that people will wake up and stop excusing cruel and inhumane behavior as acceptable if it is done in the name of science.

The Greek Philosopher and Mathematician, Pythagoras of Samos once said," when we stop killing animals we will stop killing each other."

 

[Luce NDs]

The Greek Philosopher and Mathematician, Pythagoras of Samos once said," when we stop killing animals we will stop killing each other."

Not a chance ...

Have you ever noticed the blood thirst in humankind ... a flaw as compared to the divine ... Ho key Gamos?

Thus transfusions of water ... and psychological Dilution Theory when facing impossible solutions ... what one gains comes from the other ... based on moderate mediums of thought! Can't someone eliminate that? If we didn't know would we kill without concept of myrrh d' Eire ... a mindless innocence?

Thus the bifurcation of plates and Cereous fluids ... Seminal into stages and levels ... as o'ni-unionism ...

Fear and anger will destroy that! The silence and deep waters like pragmatism in depths ...

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

I think these are called "alternative truths". Just pick the one you want to be true.

You meet two new couples in your neighbourhood, and they both say they just got married because they recently fell in love.

You notice over the next few years one couple doing things like buying flowers, laughing, pregnant, tricycle, etc. Evidences of a happy healthy relationship.

The other couple do nothing together, separate bank accounts and bedrooms. No evidence of relationship, because they married simply to get one of them citizenship to the country.

One is a true relationship with evidence visible to anyone - but that relationship is based on love. The love does not require the evidences. The evidences are a result of the love. But it doesn't go the other way that you require evidences in order to have the loving relationship.

We are saved by grace, through faith. If we have true faith, there will be evidence of that faith by what we do. But what we do does not generate salvation. One causes the other, but it does not go both ways.

 

[Jaebius]

You notice over the next few years one couple doing things like buying flowers, laughing, pregnant, tricycle, etc. Evidences of a happy healthy relationship.

Such evidences can be deceiving. I've known couples like this, some from within my own family, and seen them tragically end up in divorce.

The other couple do nothing together, separate bank accounts and bedrooms. No evidence of relationship, because they married simply to get one of them citizenship to the country.

Separate interests, bank accounts, and even bedrooms do not necessarily equal lack of love. And how would you possibly know that the couple had married, "simply to get one of them citizenship to the country." I married someone who's a citizen of another country. I trust you wouldn't just assume we married so she could become a Canadian.

One is a true relationship with evidence visible to anyone - but that relationship is based on love. The love does not require the evidences. The evidences are a result of the love. But it doesn't go the other way that you require evidences in order to have the loving relationship.

Maybe they're both true relationships - two successful couples, each doing things their own way. Maybe neither one is a successful couple. Things are not always as they seem.

We are saved by grace, through faith. If we have true faith, there will be evidence of that faith by what we do. But what we do does not generate salvation. One causes the other, but it does not go both ways.

Agreed.

 

[revjohn]

Two people are lost at sea, one finds a life preserver and says look! Salvation, grab hold! The other says, no thank you, then swims off murmuring how prideful the guy resting on his life preserver is.

Pride goeth before the drowning.

Must be a warm sea.

Around here most refuse to wear a life jacket because drowning is considered more peaceful and faster than hypothermia. Mind you a couple last year managed 3 hours in the water clinging to an emptied jerry can before rescue. Still spent the better part of the next 48 hours in Hospital getting properly warmed.

So finding a life preserver may keep you afloat, it doesn't find you and depending upon the water it may not do more than prolong the inevitable.

Still, it is better than suggesting both were drowning because what we know about two drowning individuals in close proxinity to one another is that one will wind up trying to climb on top of the other making sure that the other does drown in an attempt to save their own life. We also know that you could throw a brick to a drowning person and in their desperation they would still reach out to try and catch it. Presuming they still had some autonomy of movement left.

Of course, it is a gift of grace that the life preserver happened to be floating about in the first place. Without that both are lost and tiring at sea.

The fact that both can participate in a very coherent conversation shows that the situation is not quite dire.

 

[revjohn]

And there is one problem with your analogy: Drowning at sea is a pretty clear risk and all agree on that. No one is likely to refuse a life preserver unless they are totally out of it or they are doing it so it can be offered to someone else.

Lost at Sea.

In the analogy the two are lost at sea and not at the point where they are drowing. It is suggested that such is an inevitability for one. While the two are thinking clearly wisdom suggests remaining together improves odds of survival.

When you're dealing with "salvation", not everyone sees the same risk or sees the risk in the same way. Some don't believe in the need for salvation at all. Some don't believe in salvation by faith (e.g. a Calvinist wouldn't even use the life preserver analogy, but would perhaps see God as a search & rescue tech pulling us from the sea). There's probably some other possibilities that I'm leaving off.

Risk is not always a matter of self-perception. If it was nobody would ever fall through thin ice because nobody would ever venture out on it. The problem is typically when the ice proves it is not as thick as was initially presumed.

A lifeguard is trained to spot trouble and to spot it before it actually becomes trouble. What does a tiring swimmer look like? What are the water conditions in the area? Why is that individual out that far alone? A good lifeguard acts upon the best information available to the lifeguard not information reported by swimmers. Waiting until it becomes obvious someone is in trouble reduces the ability to make the life save.

So, depending on the swim area lifeguards will intervene as soon as they make a determination that intervention is better attempted now rather than waiting until later.

So the Calvinist agrees. Search and rescue trumps life preserver analogy simply because the Calvinist recognizes all are at risk of drowning. There is, no such thing, from a Calvinist perspective as a swimmer strong enough to escape the rip tides or cross currents of the sea we all find ourselves in. So it is a matter of triage. Get to the ones who need it most, first. If God does not haul us out of the sea then we perish in it. If not sooner, then certainly later.

The analogy breaks down in that unlike most lifeguards who are trained to recognize their limits God has none and yet all will not be saved anyway.

 

[revjohn]

Highlighting scripture is one way we show, as individuals, how we translate a passage.

Unsafe's highlight of material in Ephesians 2: 8-9 indicates what she believes is important to the text.

Unsafe doesn't add or subtract from the actual text, she does attempt to emphasize something beyond what the text itself emphasizes.

Then what does that person do with this scripture -----

Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works so that no one can boast.

When I look at the same passage I would highlight the text differently.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--9 not by works so that no one can boast

We both appeal to the same text. Are we both communicating the same thing?

 

[Jaebius]

Lost at Sea.

In the analogy the two are lost at sea and not at the point where they are drowing. It is suggested that such is an inevitability for one. While the two are thinking clearly wisdom suggests remaining together improves odds of survival.



Risk is not always a matter of self-perception. If it was nobody would ever fall through thin ice because nobody would ever venture out on it. The problem is typically when the ice proves it is not as thick as was initially presumed.

A lifeguard is trained to spot trouble and to spot it before it actually becomes trouble. What does a tiring swimmer look like? What are the water conditions in the area? Why is that individual out that far alone? A good lifeguard acts upon the best information available to the lifeguard not information reported by swimmers. Waiting until it becomes obvious someone is in trouble reduces the ability to make the life save.

So, depending on the swim area lifeguards will intervene as soon as they make a determination that intervention is better attempted now rather than waiting until later.

So the Calvinist agrees. Search and rescue trumps life preserver analogy simply because the Calvinist recognizes all are at risk of drowning. There is, no such thing, from a Calvinist perspective as a swimmer strong enough to escape the rip tides or cross currents of the sea we all find ourselves in. So it is a matter of triage. Get to the ones who need it most, first. If God does not haul us out of the sea then we perish in it. If not sooner, then certainly later.

The analogy breaks down in that unlike most lifeguards who are trained to recognize their limits God has none and yet all will not be saved anyway.

If the lifeguard is doing their job well, why will some not be saved?

 

[Mendalla]

If the lifeguard is doing their job well, why will some not be saved?

He did say that limited atonement is where the lifeguard analogy breaks down.

 

[Jaebius]

He did say that limited atonement is where the lifeguard analogy breaks down.

Because in extreme Calvinism, the lifeguard is not only interested in saving a few who are drowning, but is also keenly interested in letting a great many others go down.

 

[Mendalla]

Because in extreme Calvinism, the lifeguard is not only interested in saving a few who are drowning, but is also keenly interested in letting a great many others go down.

One of many reasons why my universalist spiritual forebears took a dislike to Calvinism.

 

[revjohn]

Because in extreme Calvinism, the lifeguard is not only interested in saving a few who are drowning, but is also keenly interested in letting a great many others go down.

Even in simple Calvinism, where TULIP originates atonement is Limited. Hence the L in the acronym.

In order for grace to exist judgment must happen. If judgement is never a real option grace never actually exists.

Current default is all have sinned and the wages of sin are death. It isn't that any are in danger of drowning so much as it is that all have drowned.

The life-guard is involved in resucitation action. And none of us who presume to tell the life-guard how or which should be saved do so from our own position which without grace would be hopeless and helpless.

In the absence of universalism and with human will also absent from the equation the salvation of any is an act of grace and the refusal to save an act of justice.

Which is where the analogy fails.

A life-guard making those kinds of decisions we would fire for playing God.

When we are actually discussing God then we are forced to admit that of all possible individuals to play the part of God, God is supremely capable of pulling it off.

The principle difference between hyper Calvinism (or extreme) and orthodox Calvinism is the effectiveness of evangelism.

Hyper Calvinism presumes evangelism to be useless. God, in essence refuses to use humans as tools in the process.

Orthodox Calvinism presumes human activity in the process of salvation is that of a tool. The hammer does not swing itself. God may use a tool to waken the elect. The tool does not decide who is or is not a member of the elect.

In that regard evangelism is not integral to salvation. The choice to save has already been made. Evangelism becomes a process whereby the saved are revived.

Hyper Calvinism doesn't even allow for that.

 

[Luce NDs]

We must learn alone ... while innate lies there ... resting afore the spade ... anticipation of the dig ... many pokes surround us !

 

[unsafe]

revjohn ------your quote -----Unsafe's highlight of material in Ephesians 2: 8-9 indicates what she believes is important to the text.


Just to clarify ---------unsafe highlighted this statement in this scripture in response to Mendalla's quote ----here in post #61---- Some don't believe in salvation by faith -----

and I asked this question ------then what do you do with this text -----so the highlighted part was in response to his quote not for any other reason ------and Mendalla's response is in post # 73 ------No idea. Ask someone who believes it-----

Ephesians 2: 8-9 said:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--9 not by works so that no one can boast

unsafe says
As for the rest of the text ---I believe it is all important -----Every word that God has inspired to be written in His Book is important to me revjohn --not just high lighted parts that I choose mainly to respond to posts ------

So for all people who believe that Grace is just there with no faith involved and that Faith is not needed to be saved then how do you get saved because the scripture is very clear on Faith is need to even please God -----and Faith is needed to be Saved and Grace is why you are saved through your faith in The Shed Blood of Jesus Christ to remove all sin ------Jesus died so all could be saved according to scripture -----
And for the people who believe that only some are saved -----What then do you do with these scripture that are very plain and needs no degrees of any kind to understand what it says ------The Holy Spirit will teach you the true meaning of the scripture if anyone has a problem with their understanding ---don't need man's education for spiritual matters -----

unsafe posts 3 scriptures relevant to what I stated above ----- Faith is needed to please God and Grace is rooted in Faith not human performance ----Grace rooted in Faith is what saves us ------it is called saving faith ----highlighting what is relevant to what I am trying to convey----

Hebrews 11:6Amplified Bible (AMP)

6 But without faith it is impossible to [walk with God and] please Him, for whoever comes [near] to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He rewards those who [earnestly and diligently] seek Him.


Romans 4:13-17GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
We Have God’s Approval by Faith

13 So it was not by obeying the laws in Moses’ Teachings that Abraham or his descendants received the promise that he would inherit the world. Rather, he received this promise through God’s approval that comes by faith. 14 If those who obey Moses’ Teachings are the heirs, then faith is useless and the promise is worthless. 15 The laws in Moses’ Teachings bring about anger. But where those laws don’t exist, they can’t be broken. 16 Therefore, the promise is based on faith so that it can be a gift. Consequently, the promise is guaranteed for every descendant, not only for those who are descendants by obeying Moses’ Teachings but also for those who are descendants by believing as Abraham did. He is the father of all of us, 17 as Scripture says: “I have made you a father of many nations.”

Abraham believed when he stood in the presence of the God who gives life to dead people and calls into existence things that don’t even exist.


1 Timothy 2Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
Instructions on Prayer

2 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all those who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good, and it pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

unsafe says
So for all those who believe that God chooses certain people by and through his Grace what happens to this scripture ------ God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We can all believe what we want of course ---Note ---I personally have no problem with what others believe ---I personally Believe that God knows who will receive His saving Faith and who won't but If God Chooses certain Humans Himself to be saved then He violets is own word and is a liar -----cause His word states that God is not a respecter of persons ---so in the sense of God knowing who will receive His free Gift of Salvation and who won't I agree with --- but not that he chooses himself the people to save -----

Leaving with this scripture ----God's word ----And if anyone has a problem with God's word that I posted ---Talk to God about it not me cause I didn't write it He did ---

unsafe just believes the scripture as it and I personally rely on the Holy Spirit for my own understanding of His word -

-However other people what to interpret God's word is between them and God not me -------I post the word as it is -----belief in what it says is a personal choice -----When we die we will ALL know the Real Truth behind His Word ------


Paul Preach the Gospel as He was Directed by The Holt Spirit and Paul was directed when he preached this word below ---that is my belief --

 

[chansen]

unsafe, we HAVE to get you in that thread with udbe. It would be epic.

 

[unsafe]

chansen ----your quote -----, we HAVE to get you in that thread with udbe. It would be epic.

Just for the record ----I am is not here to be involved in any thread with anyone person to be epic and please an audience for their entertainment -----I am here to voice what I believe and share God's word ----what udbe or anyone believes is between them and God -----Period ---

I and udbe and you-----and everyone else on this WC2 sight will know the real truth when we all die ------until then we will only speculate what the real truth is -----God word say it is Truth ---so that is all we have to go by ---we can refuse to believe it ---mock it -----chew it up and spit it out ----change the words to suit what we want to preach and have people believe ---say the words were written by men ----say it can be interpreted many ways---say there is more than one way to God --- etc--etc ---BUT---- that doesn't change the words that God inspired to be put down in His Book ----

What udbe believes is what udbe believes ---what unsafe believes is what unsafe believes ----what chansen believes is what chansen believes ----

It is ALL about Belief ------not in the mind but in the Heart -------

 

[chansen]

Just for the record ----I am is not here to be involved in any thread with anyone person to be epic and please an audience for their entertainment

Well, it might not be your aim, but you are exceptionally entertaining.

udbe doesn't think you know the name of your 10th grandfather. Also, he says you're sleeping with your neighbour and using contraceptives. I'm not sure which of those is worse in his mind. If you would go over there and set him straight, I'd really, really enjoy it.

Just think about it. Would God want udbe's claims to go unchallenged? You have a calling.

 

[unsafe]

Would God want udbe's claims to go unchallenged


You will have to ask God about that not me -------

You will probably have to can call or text Him cause according to scripture ---your prayers will not be heard -----

Not My Words here ----God's Words

John 9:31Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
31 We all know that God does not listen to sinners, but he will listen to anyone who worships and obeys him.


try call this number -----and see what happens