God as Father?

[Waterfall]

In all of the churches that I've been a part of, at least some of the leadership positions were available to women.

Why not all leadership positions?

 

[Jaebius]

How does it make everyone equal if women are not allowed to even apply to be a preacher within some churches?

That question would only be valid if preacher was a higher role than others. I don't see it as such. It is a role that is equal to other roles which women can absolutely fill - even in complementarian churches.

 

[Waterfall]

That question would only be valid if preacher was a higher role than others. I don't see it as such. It is a role that is equal to other roles which women can absolutely fill - even in complementarian churches.

Then why are males only allowed to be preachers within churches that only allow males to become preachers? I know you are not Roman Catholic, so maybe answer within the denomination that you are more familiar with.

 

[Jaebius]

Then why are males only allowed to be preachers within churches that only allow males to become preachers? I know you are not Roman Catholic, so maybe answer within the denomination that you are more familiar with.

 

[DaisyJane]

When key positions of influence are decided upon and held only by men that is (one form of) privilege.

If you say I cannot do something because I lack the skills, education, or training then that is acceptable. If you tell me I cannot hold certain leadership positions because I lack a penis that is discrimination.

 

[Jaebius]

@DaisyJane - Is it your belief that a role such as Elder or Pastor is a better one in a church than others? It seems to me that you feel that way. However, that isn't how I see things. I see those roles as being different but not better than other church roles.

 

[DaisyJane]

There is no denying that in churches with clearly male hierarchies that key positions of influence and power are held by men exclusively and denied to women based on the different but equal notion. You clearly buy it - the equal but different. Easy for a guy who would not be denied opportunities because of something one cannot change. I don't buy it. It is sexism pure and simple.

You little video vignette clearly uses the word "authority". Women shall not have spiritual authority over men. Seems a lot like power to me, no matter how you spin it.

 

[chansen]

@DaisyJane - Is it your belief that a role such as Elder or Pastor is a better one in a church than others? It seems to me that you feel that way. However, that isn't how I see things. I see those roles as being different but not better than other church roles.

Certainly, Baptist pastors aren't better because Baptist men don't have to compete against Baptist women for these positions. By definition, Baptists will have a weaker group of pastors to choose from because the pool is artificially shallow. It's like affirmative action for dudes.

 

[KayTheCurler]

What unjust treatment of different categories of people have you witnessed taking place in churches DaisyJane?

Obviously I am not DaisyJane but I could toss your way -
not allowing girls into the choir
not ordaining females
banning a man from supervising the church nursery 'because that is a womens' ministry'
consistently 'forgetting' to notify a particular person about an upcoming event
never choosing poorly dressed children for special privileges - like doing the collection of offertory

Obviously just a quickly jotted down list - I'm sure I could come up with more.

 

[KayTheCurler]

In all of the churches that I've been a part of, at least some of the leadership positions were available to women.

I find it really distressing to keep banging into your unwillingness to honestly self examine your attitudes. Could you try being transparently honest?

 

[Jaebius]

Certainly, Baptist pastors aren't better because Baptist men don't have to compete against Baptist women for these positions. By definition, Baptists will have a weaker group of pastors to choose from because the pool is artificially shallow. It's like affirmative action for dudes.

chansen - you may not be aware, although I'm sure I've shared this on WC2 before - some Baptist denominations absolutely do allow women to be pastors.

 

[Jaebius]

I find it really distressing to keep banging into your unwillingness to honestly self examine your attitudes. Could you try being transparently honest?

Not quite sure what you're on about there Kay.

 

[chansen]

chansen - you may not be aware, although I'm sure I've shared this on WC2 before - some Baptist denominations absolutely do allow women to be pastors.

Are the Southern Baptists or Fellowship Baptists among them?

 

[Jaebius]

not allowing girls into the choir

banning a man from supervising the church nursery 'because that is a womens' ministry'

consistently 'forgetting' to notify a particular person about an upcoming event

never choosing poorly dressed children for special privileges - like doing the collection of offertory

Obviously just a quickly jotted down list - I'm sure I could come up with more.

You've actually witnessed such things take place Kay? Wow, just wow. Glad I never have.

 

[KayTheCurler]

The churches that decide to limit individual choice by using the different but equal argument would probably riot if the men were told -
because you are equal but different only men will be permitted to clean, dust, attend to bathrooms and table laying jobs.

 

[DaisyJane]

Not quite sure what you're on about there Kay.

Yes. You have made that very clear.

 

[Jaebius]

Are the Southern Baptists or Fellowship Baptists among them?

The Fellowship - no.

The Southern Baptists are a bit more complex. From their website, "The Baptist Faith and Message (BF&M) affirms the vital role of women serving in the church. Yet it recognizes the biblical restriction concerning the office of pastor, saying: 'While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.' The passages that restrict the office of pastor to men do not negate the essential equality of men and women before God, but rather focus on the assignment of roles. The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are restricted to men. However the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy." Source: Southern Baptist Convention > Frequently Asked Questions

 

[Jaebius]

The churches that decide to limit individual choice by using the different but equal argument would probably riot if the men were told -
because you are equal but different only men will be permitted to clean, dust, attend to bathrooms and table laying jobs.

That would be fine - so long as it is Scripturally-supported.

 

[GeoFee]

I agree, except when Father is preferred and becomes the norm....as it has for close to 2000 years. Good on you for being inclusive or more to the point....describing Gods attributes rather than gender.

Something learned in my mother's kitchen which has served me well all along the opening way.

For many in high places the name of God is effectually deployed as a graven image. Idolatry is a very present concern. Diverse idols serving diverse temple economies well.

But I digress.

George

 

[GordW]

In the original Aramaic the Lords prayer began:

"O cosmic birther, from whom the breath of life comes,
who fills all realms of sound, light and vibrations"

as it continues, there is no mention of God as Father.

From the Gospel of the Holy Twelve:
"Our father mother , who art above and within"

What we commonly used to translate the Lords Prayer into English is Mathews second century mistranslation in crude Greek and became the base for all other translations.

Henry the VIII, imposed an english translation to create a standard English version.

The SUPPOSED original Aramaic...the text comes from Gospels written in Greek. AFAIK there is no pre-Matthew or pre-Luke text showing wht the community originally remembered JEsus saying in either Aramaic or Hebrew