TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

[revsdd]

Not anymore than labeling me a pessimist. I think we should encourage Graeme to continue to speak out.

Graeme is always welcome to speak out. But of course he never really offers solutions either. He simply rails against the problem. That's the thing. We can all identify the problems. Coming up with solutions is far more difficult - and so what we do is usually blame somebody else for not having the solutions that we haven't come up with ourselves.

 

[Waterfall]

Graeme is always welcome to speak out. But of course he never really offers solutions either. He simply rails against the problem. That's the thing. We can all identify the problems. Coming up with solutions is far more difficult - and so what we do is usually blame somebody else for not having the solutions that we haven't come up with ourselves.

Well perhaps we could all at least agree and acknowledge that what he's say is correct....have we not learned anything from the First Nations? He holds a platform within the public arena, why not access it with our agreement and add to his voice, that the people are becoming discontent with how the gov't is working both sides during wars?

 

[revsdd]

Well perhaps we could all at least agree and acknowledge that what he's say is correct....have we not learned anything from the First Nations? He holds a platform within the public arena, why not access it with our agreement and add to his voice, that the people are becoming discontent with how the gov't is working both sides during wars?

If you read carefully, you'll discover that I've never said that Graeme is wrong and have on several occasions said that I agree with him.

The difference I have with Graeme (and with you, apparently) is that I am optimistic that things will get better - and, in fact, are getting better on a macro level, although we can all point to specific situations and places where that doesn't seem to be the case right now. I also believe that churches are doing far more than Graeme gives them credit for.

But in his overall analysis - he's bang on.

 

[Waterfall]

If you read carefully, you'll discover that I've never said that Graeme is wrong and have on several occasions said that I agree with him.

The difference I have with Graeme (and with you, apparently) is that I am optimistic that things will get better - and, in fact, are getting better on a macro level, although we can all point to specific situations and places where that doesn't seem to be the case right now. I also believe that churches are doing far more than Graeme gives them credit for.

But in his overall analysis - he's bang on.

Well it just felt like he was being shut down because he was being repetitious. I'm just saying we should never shut down his voice but encourage it....as much as it may irk us because we want to move on to the "next thing".

 

[revjohn]

A good way to squelch an issue back into passivity.

Is that worse than active ignorance?

Churches the world over are engaged and many are investing a lot of time and energy into working with individuals to improve their circumstance. Claims that it isn't happening require a willful myopeia.

Are Churches at the forefront? Not so much. But there isn't really a competition to help is there? No first or second place? No win place or show? And if we do a decent or event good job what are the observable gains? Politicians on their knees begging forgiveness or one more soul in the developing world no longer begging on the street?

It would be great if it didn't have to be either/or and could be both and. All things considered one less person begging on the street strikes me as a bigger step forward.

The situation in the US is what it is. And a lot of support for Trump comes from the demagogues, politically and theologically. Is that the vast majority? Not likely. It is a lot of power to push against. Lack of progress does not mean pushing is not happening. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion and objects at rest tend to stay at rest.

Trump will not last. Even if he manages two complete terms that is 8 years out of history and not the whole of history.

 

[Waterfall]

Is that worse than active ignorance?

Churches the world over are engaged and many are investing a lot of time and energy into working with individuals to improve their circumstance. Claims that it isn't happening require a willful myopeia.

Are Churches at the forefront? Not so much. But there isn't really a competition to help is there? No first or second place? No win place or show? And if we do a decent or event good job what are the observable gains? Politicians on their needs begging forgiveness or one more soul in the developing world no longer begging on the street?

It would be great if it didn't have to be either/or and could be both and. All things considered one less person begging on the street strikes me as a bigger step forward.

The situation in the US is what it is. And a lot of support for Trump comes from the demagogues, politically and theologically. Is that the vast majority? Not likely. It is a lot of power to push against. Lack of progress does not mean pushing is not happening. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion and objects at rest tend to stay at rest.

Trump will not last. Even if he manages two complete terms that is 8 years out of history and not the whole of history.

But as had been mentioned, it's mostly the "crazy" fundamentalist literal churches( not all fundamentalists churches are) that seem to command the air time and editorials. Why is there not a strong voice from the churches that disagree with the gov't on major issues on a consistent basis. I don't even know who speaks out in Canada on behalf of the churches to mentor towards peaceful resolutions, do you? Is there somebody? Trump may be gone in 8 years, but after what damage has been done?

 

[Graeme Decarie]

revsdd - you're always short on evidence - even in criticizing others for not having it. I think we could be enriched by reading your sermons criticizing Canada for sending Canadians to kill Afghanis for the benefit of American hyper billionaires. There was also the Canadian role in bombing Libya and Syria. (neither of those legal under international law.) We sent "peacekeepers" to give the U.S. a cover for overthrowing the elected government of Haiti.
Tell us about the Christian values that George Bush brought to the world. Or that Obama brought in deliberately starving the people of Yemen to death.
Have you ever preached on the brutality of Canadian mining companies in Latin America? Do you know about it?
The world is getting better? Maybe for your congregation. But in the rest of the world, including Canada, poverty and hunger and violent death - No, that part not in Canada - are in a spectacular tise And there is much, much worse to come. We did not deal with nuclear weapons in 1945. And we haven't since. The result is that they are on the increase. And, gee, have you considered the thought that a declining U.S. might use them as a last hope?
As for capitalism being a positive force (Mendalla), come off it. The wealthy all over the world don't pay taxes which means we all lose have our potential tax revenue. So we have trouble providing schools and hospitals. As well (I am a historian) almost all wars of the last several hundred years have been fought to make capitalists richer. And, yes, that includes both world wars.
And our Christian help to the starving all over the world? Hell, it's mostly capitalism that's starving them. In any case, our giving is way, way down. That's a major explanation of the rising death rate in Africa.
And is it possible to accept Seeler's view that Jesus' view of helping the poor was advising this just for individuals or church groups? Come on. If He had been as simple as that, He would never have been crucified.

Speaking of crucifixion, I notice we haven't often crucified Christian clergy in the western world. That's because they toe the line.
Even in the most glaring cases. How many German clergy were charged for supporting Hitler, including in his murder of Jews?

The only major killing of clergy in the western world that I can think of in modern history was the widespread murder of Christian church workers and leaders in Guatemala ((1970s and 80s), Paid for and organized by the U.S. Christians in the CIA and by the Guatemalan army ( planned by George Bush's daddy, a devout Christian). 200,000 Maya native people were slaughtered, with no discrimination by age or sex. One of the dead was a lay missionary who lies buried not far from me. North American news media (including New Brunswick) largely ignored that whole slaughter. It was done at the will of capitalists like united fruit company and Canadian mining companies to force people to accept starvation and brutality. ( so much for the Christian benefits of capitalism.)

A majority of New Brunswickers have never heard of that young man in the Catholic cemetery. But why should they? Right by it is a the Irving chapel, named by our billionaire lord in his tradition of naming everything after himself. And you can bet none of the preachers at that chapel will ever mention Young Leger. The billionaire hires only the best preachers money can buy. And there's a barn where Christian can meet over coffee and chat - about safe topics. Oh, another reason why visitors to the Irving chapel will never hear about Leger's murder is that the billionaire also owns all the papers in the province.

Of course, revsdd could demolish all this by saying I don't have enough evidence. (Hint - the NFB has a film about the Leger murder.)

But I would be fascinated by seeing revsdd's sermons on how ALL sides in war deliberately concentrate on bombing civilians. It destroys morale. This was first developed as a war tactic by Winston Churchill who, in 1920, ordered the bombing of undefended Kurd villages. Praise the Lord!

Gee! It's too bad I ain't smart like some people, and don't have no evidence.

 

[revjohn]

Why is there not a strong voice from the churches that disagree with the gov't on major issues on a consistent basis.

Because they are busy taking the action that needs to be taken? In the US food stamps are about to be cut, that is going to have a significant impact upon many individuals. Where is the Church? Stocking the foodbanks. If not with foodstuffs themselves they will be stocking with foodstuffs provided by others.

And again, show me the news network that thinks anyone short of the Pope speaking out against unrestricted capitalism is news worthy.

I don't even know who speaks out in Canada on behalf of the churches to mentor towards peaceful resolutions, do you?

On behalf of all denominations? There isn't anyone. There is a Canadian Council of Churches which can speak, in a limited fashion for interChurch activity, it doesn't speak unilaterally for all membership denominations. As far as the UCCAN is concerned we have a Moderator, a General Secretary and various Conference Presidents. All of whom communicate regularly with the Church. Are those communications of any interest to any news media? Not unless there is some conflict that can be mined.

Is there somebody? Trump may be gone in 8 years, but after what damage has been done?

Like there was no damage being done prior to his advent. The United States had a decorated military general serve as president and warn about the military industrial complex. Who listened? Yeah sure the Church isn't loud enough. Pearls before swine. They do not listen because the Church isn't loud enough. They don't listen because what the Church calls for is so out of style. And yet the church continues to do those things.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

Incidentally, the U.S., in particular, fights its wars on the taxes of ordinary Americans. That's why it doesn't have much money to spare for its own people. So get that picture. In virtually all warlike countries, wars are fought for capitalists - but the capitalists don't have to pay a cent for them because all the money comes from us.

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

Jesus was a Jew. Did he follow Jewish principles? Did he rebel against the government? raise an army? overthrow the government? turn against his religion because some leaders were colaborating with the foreign rulers?

Jesus was born a Jew and lived inside the Jewish community. This until the day of his baptism. I understand that baptism to signify a death to his inherited way of being in the world and his resurrection to God's way of being in the world [this seems clear in Saul/Paul's understanding of baptism. See Philippians 3]. He did not rebel against the government. He did resist it and predict its demise. He did not raise an army. The feeding of the five thousand men on a hillside where he was teaching indicates that he could have. Some were hoping that he would. But he refused when they sought to make him their king. I read this as he refused to face the human dilemma by resort to religion or politics. I see no indication of any desire to renovate or renew these human institutions.

The way of Jesus was inspired, authorized and equipped by the spirit. The spirit of God pronouncing a new possibility for the land and its peoples. As to turning against his religion I would say that he clearly and consistently called its precept and practice into question. Taken as a whole the public position of Jesus is in no way accommodated to the way of the world either religiously or politically.

Or did he go about doing good and urging others to do the same? Things like feeding the hungry, offering shelter to the homeless, encouraging the discouraged, befriending the outcast, sharing with the poor? All the while within the country of his birth and in the Jewish religion.

Jesus did all of this by the inspiration and authorization of the Holy Spirit. His mandate is declared in the Nazareth synagogue by reference to the prophet Isaiah. He expresses this mandate and calls others to join him in service to this mandate. Many are attracted. Some are annoyed and angered. These begin to plan the silencing of the alternative imagination Jesus makes present in a way convincing to those languishing under religious and political jurisdiction. As the number of persons attracted to Jesus grows the resistance of the powers reaches its critical limit.

I will suggest that there was more to the rejection of Jesus than refusal of his kindness and generosity. This brings in the matter of eschatology. Jesus was preparing persons for the ending of one dispensation and the emergence of another. Where politics and religion distorted the human divine relationship, the living spirit of God would guide persons of faith, not understood as religion, through a process of sanctification and towards a mission in the world. The mandate of the Holy Spirit animating Jesus was communicated to the apostolic assembly on Pentecost. The gathered people were animated to make manifest a new order of reality. We notice that their association is characterized as intimate communal relations grounded in study and prayer. We also notice that this association was wholly mutual. No person had any sense of a private property. Those well resourced liquidated capital assets to support the community concern for inclusion of any and all excluded by the dominant religious and political social economy.

I have no doubt that charity abounds in and through Christian persons and associations of persons. I am not convinced that many among these are seeking justice. Put in another way, I see little evidence that church folk would be willing to relinquish the traditions of political hedonism and possessive individualism as a step towards a new world order. In Jesus I hear a voice calling for austerity and mutuality in the face of rampant abuse of power by political structures endorsed by religious structures.

For me baptism signifies a renunciation of one interpretation of reality and the appropriation of another. A radical break between who I was and who I am becoming, by the grace of God and in the purpose of God. I see little evidence of this perspective in the general population of the diverse institutional expressions of Christianity.

George

The apostle in Philippians 3:

"For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven."​

 

[Graeme Decarie]

Anybody ever hear of J. S. Woodsworth?

As to media not carrying stories critical of the powerful - of course not. Almost all of them are owned by the same rich and powerful who own the politicians.

 

[revjohn]

Anybody ever hear of J. S. Woodsworth?

You are a pretty inattentive member of the United Church if you haven't heard of Woodsworth.

As to media not carrying stories critical of the powerful - of course not. Almost all of them are owned by the same rich and powerful who own the politicians.

Yes, they are.

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

But of course he never really offers solutions either.

Could we start by taking a good look at thoughts such as this?

"The pressing human task today is not to endure further misapplications of the power system, but to detach ourselves from it, and cultivate our subjective resources as never before. If this seems an all but impossible demand, with the odds heavily in favor of the power system and against personality, one need only remember how absurd such a withdrawal, such a rejection, such a challenge seemed to most intelligent Romans before Christianity presented an alternative." Mumford/1970

"Though no immediate and complete escape from the ongoing power system is possible, least of all through mass violence, the changes that will restore autonomy and initiative to the human person all lie within the province of each individual soul, once it is roused. Nothing could be more damaging to the myth of the machine, and to the dehumanized social order it has brought into existence, than a steady withdrawal of interest, a slowing down of tempo, a stoppage of senseless routines and mindless acts." Mumford/1970

"The hour of decision has come, and it can only come once. Faith calls us to leave this world, this age, and its works. If we let old age and death do the job of separating us from them, we merely submit to our lives' fading away, to the decline of our powers and the objectification of fate, we shall have thrown away our chances. We shall have simply demonstrated that we are objects in the hands of Chronos, instead of having chosen the moment of our departure, of our break with the past, that is, instead of having given to time and our world a meaningful center, through a decision announcing that the moment has come. The Kairos, the event is here. Ellul/1973

"However, the oppressed, who have adapted to the structure of domination in which they are immersed, and have become resigned to it, are inhibited from waging the struggle for freedom so long as they feel incapable of running the risks it requires. Moreover, their struggle for freedom threatens not only the oppressor, but also their own oppressed comrades who are fearful of still greater repression. When they discover within themselves the yearning to be free, they perceive that this yearning can be transformed into reality only when the same yearning is aroused in their comrades. But while dominated by the fear of freedom they refuse to appeal to others, or to listen to the appeals of others, or even to the appeals of their own conscience. They prefer gregariousness to authentic comradeship; they prefer the security of conformity with their state of unfreedom to the creative communion produced by freedom and even the very pursuit of freedom. Freire/1992
​

George

 

[Luce NDs]

When it all collapses .. stuff could change ... due to necessity ... devoid of prescience?

 

[Jaebius]

You are a pretty inattentive member of the United Church if you haven't heard of Woodsworth.



Yes, they are.

I've never heard of Woodsworth. And before you say, "But you're not a member of the United Church," keep in mind that I used to be one.

 

[revjohn]

I've never heard of Woodsworth. And before you say, "But you're not a member of the United Church," keep in mind that I used to be one.

Then I guess you were a pretty inattentive then.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

His influence did not begin with the United Church. And it was never exclusive to any church. He was a man who tried to apply Christian principles to our political behaviour. (No. He did not do it through either the Liberals or Conservatives.) He was also a man who didn't think it was good enough to give out sandwiches in church basements.

 

[Jaebius]

...He was also a man who didn't think it was good enough to give out sandwiches in church basements.

Yet he was in the United Church?? Oh wait, I know, let me guess - he promised free sandwiches but then charged $8 for a lousy sandwich, a glass of fruitade and a small cake.

 

[revjohn]

His influence did not begin with the United Church. And it was never exclusive to any church.

Very True. I'm not even certain he actually served The United Church of Canada. He was Methodist, pre-union and most of the Methodists did join at Union. He was an MP in 1921 (Union didn't happen until 1925). Anybody with a Grade 9 history class (at least according to the Ontario Curricula covered the Winnipeg General Strike where his name should have stood out. He is a very difficult Canadian to miss.

He was a man who tried to apply Christian principles to our political behaviour. (No. He did not do it through either the Liberals or Conservatives.) He was also a man who didn't think it was good enough to give out sandwiches in church basements.

Got arrested for preaching scripture. Not many clergy get to wear that badge.

 

[Jaebius]

Very True. I'm not even certain he actually served The United Church of Canada. He was Methodist, pre-union and most of the Methodists did join at Union. He was an MP in 1921 (Union didn't happen until 1925). Anybody with a Grade 9 history class (at least according to the Ontario Curricula covered the Winnipeg General Strike where his name should have stood out. He is a very difficult Canadian to miss.



Got arrested for preaching scripture. Not many clergy get to wear that badge.

While I have never been arrested, a couple of people have given me the stinkeye.