TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

[revsdd]

I'm afraid that I would have to agree with Graeme.

Then we disagree as well.

Yes there are churches that do things to help people around the world and at home, but by the very fact that evil seems to be overwhelming the churches, the world and the people of this planet seems to be unnervingly evident.

A "fact" can be demonstrated by the use of empirical evidence. Please refer me to the empirical evidence supporting this fact. Otherwise it's a claim or an opinion but not a fact. It may even be an illusion created by fear with no substance.

We are unnerved and resigned to having little effect on terrorism/evil and there seems to be almost an acceptance that things have gone too far to be reversed in the world,

Identify "we." Or are you speaking for yourself and projecting your own opinions and feelings on to "us." Personally, I feel neither unnerved nor resigned, nor do I believe that things have gone too far to be reversed.

so we tend to nurture the tiny area we live in and act appalled as we lamely watch how other countries are suffering, thanking God we don't live there and refusing to visit.

Another "we" statement. That is certainly not my observation of the church in general.

We cannot imagine that sort of evil within our own borders,

Actually, my observation would be exactly the reverse. "We" can easily imagine such things happening here, which is why so many are so willing to give up some of their basic rights and freedoms for the illusion of greater security. If we didn't think such things could happen here we'd be less willing to fall like sheep before governments, police and other agencies that seek to restrict our freedoms.

even as we witness Europes struggles, but someday it will come here too, if our voices don't get louder no matter how repetitious this message sounds or grates on our ears over and over again.[/FONT]

Someday it probably will. In fact, it already has to some degree. Terrorist attacks and terrorist cells in Canada are not unknown

I can only say that as a believer in Jesus Christ I have a largely optimistic worldview. I believe that in general terms things are getting better rather than worse; that humanity is on an upward trajectory and that eventually the reality of God's Kingdom will burst through in all its fullness. Until then as Christians we are called to live in hope and not fear, aware of what's happening in the world around us but not resigned to the idea that it must always be so, and holding up and modelling the way of Jesus.

Churches don't always do that very well. By its very nature the church is made up of fallible human beings who are routinely tempted to abandon the way of Jesus, and is therefore a fallible institution which is routinely tempted to abandon the way of Jesus. We must be alert and aware, but not discouraged.

 

[chansen]

Churches are no longer moral leaders in society. When they speak, no one bothers to slow down and listen. The loudest churches are generally the most immoral, corrupt and sexually obsessed organizations around.

This is the climate churches find themselves in. This is the legacy you're dealing with, where young people eye you with the sort of suspicion reserved for door-to-door salesmen. Many of you will dismiss me, but most know I'm not wrong.

 

[revsdd]

Churches are no longer moral leaders in society. When they speak, no one bothers to slow down and listen. The loudest churches are generally the most immoral, corrupt and sexually obsessed organizations around.

This is the climate churches find themselves in. This is the legacy you're dealing with, where young people eye you with the sort of suspicion reserved for door-to-door salesmen. Many of you will dismiss me, but most know I'm not wrong.

You're absolutely right. Why would anyone dismiss you?

The church is, in biblical terms, "a voice in the wilderness." Often drowned out by louder voices - including the voices of those churches that have abandoned (knowingly or unknowingly) the way of Jesus. You, like many Christians ironically, continue to think of the church as a powerful force, or as something that should be a positive force. You've referred in the past to your wish that the United Church (being somewhat more to your liking than some) could become a powerful national voice once again (not your exact words; a paraphrase from a post that I remember reading.) I believe the best thing that can happen to the church is to lose its "powerful national voice." It was that illusion of having power and all the trappings that most effectively drew the church away from the way of Jesus.

The church is not supposed to be powerful. It is supposed to be humble. Anyone who believes that the church should be front and centre hobnobbing with the rich and powerful and changing the world has no clue what the church is supposed to be about. The church properly is called to be prophetic and to stand against those things that draw the church and society away from God. Since those things that draw us away from God are so powerful, that does not make the church mighty, large or powerful. Once a church becomes those things it is perilously close to selling its soul.

Now, realistically, of course, all churches and all Christians exist in the world, and while some spout platitudes about being in the world but not of it, the truth is that we're all tainted by the world to some extent. We couldn't survive in the world without being tainted to some extent. We are inevitably intertwined with the so-called "principalities and powers" that oppose God and that call us to their service rather than to God's service. I have a mortgage. I'm in debt to my bank. I serve my bank to an extent. In some ways that draws me away from God. (I also have a car loan, a Church Council to report to, a family and various and sundry other things that makes claims on my allegiance and service.) So, am I a perfect witness to the way of Jesus? Nope. Not by a long shot. I do believe though that if we strive to be the best we can be God will honour the effort and we will make a difference - if slowly, and even if only one person at a time.

 

[Mendalla]

I can only say that as a believer in Jesus Christ I have a largely optimistic worldview. I believe that in general terms things are getting better rather than worse; that humanity is on an upward trajectory and that eventually the reality of God's Kingdom will burst through in all its fullness.

I wouldn't word it this way, of course, but I largely agree. Yes, things look grim. I've studied history. Things have looked grim many times in human history and we've usually come out the other side into a better world. We are saving people from diseases that would have decimated populations only a couple centuries ago. Infant mortality in much of the world is at an all-time low. We understand the basic physical functioning of the world (physics, chemistry, biology) far better than at any time in the past. And we use diplomacy more readily than combat, though there is still a long way to go on that front.

I also don't see everything that some see negatively as necessarily bad things myself (e.g. capitalism). Do they work as they should to make the world better? No. Could they be done better so that more could benefit? Yes. Are they evil forces of Satan destroying our souls? Only if we let them. They are ultimately tools to be used, not forces themselves. That a tool is being misused does not make the tool evil and a tool used as intended is not evil unless the only use for that tool is destruction (e.g. weapons).

 

[Mendalla]

So, I'm an optimist as well, but a realistic one. I don't expect all our problems to be solved this decade or even in my lifetime. But I do expect things to get better overall for future generations, even if there are bumps and dips along the way. Even climate change may well turn out to be a bump or dip. We know it is coming. We are getting better and better at predicting its effects. So even if we are now past the point of being able to turn things around (and we probably are), that doesn't mean we can't adapt and adjust.

 

[revsdd]

So, I'm an optimist as well, but a realistic one. I don't expect all our problems to be solved this decade or even in my lifetime. But I do expect things to get better overall for future generations, even if there are bumps and dips along the way. Even climate change may well turn out to be a bump or dip. We know it is coming. We are getting better and better at predicting its effects. So even if we are now past the point of being able to turn things around (and we probably are), that doesn't mean we can't adapt and adjust.

I would say we mostly agree on things, the only difference being that I see God as a part of the process and believe that what we're waiting for and are inexorably moving toward is the appearance (for lack of a better word) of God's Kingdom. (Some would say the Second Coming of Jesus.)

 

[Waterfall]

Then we disagree as well.


A "fact" can be demonstrated by the use of empirical evidence. Please refer me to the empirical evidence supporting this fact. Otherwise it's a claim or an opinion but not a fact. It may even be an illusion created by fear with no substance.


Identify "we." Or are you speaking for yourself and projecting your own opinions and feelings on to "us." Personally, I feel neither unnerved nor resigned, nor do I believe that things have gone too far to be reversed.


Another "we" statement. That is certainly not my observation of the church in general.


Actually, my observation would be exactly the reverse. "We" can easily imagine such things happening here, which is why so many are so willing to give up some of their basic rights and freedoms for the illusion of greater security. If we didn't think such things could happen here we'd be less willing to fall like sheep before governments, police and other agencies that seek to restrict our freedoms.


Someday it probably will. In fact, it already has to some degree. Terrorist attacks and terrorist cells in Canada are not unknown

I can only say that as a believer in Jesus Christ I have a largely optimistic worldview. I believe that in general terms things are getting better rather than worse; that humanity is on an upward trajectory and that eventually the reality of God's Kingdom will burst through in all its fullness. Until then as Christians we are called to live in hope and not fear, aware of what's happening in the world around us but not resigned to the idea that it must always be so, and holding up and modelling the way of Jesus.

Churches don't always do that very well. By its very nature the church is made up of fallible human beings who are routinely tempted to abandon the way of Jesus, and is therefore a fallible institution which is routinely tempted to abandon the way of Jesus. We must be alert and aware, but not discouraged.

Fine we disagree, it reminds me of the response of the church to the Manchester Massacre. It was stated love always wins and that they will continue to love their neighbour.....very commendable, except who is actually speaking out or mentioning those children in war that are being murdered in much larger numbers within war zones. The focus was placed more on their own immediate community How can we mourn our own and continue supporting the murder of any innocents around the world? Do the churches say nothing to our representatives about the proliferation of the weapons trade? Do the churches speak out against America because of their military spending? Is this seen as a hands off subject because the churches are delicately avoiding delicate subjects and wanting to appear humble?
In war, terrorism, etc....it's the children I worry about the most....this is not a time for the church to exalt being humble by lowering its voice IMO, sure be humble before God, but humble before man's destructiveness...never!

 

[Waterfall]

I would say we mostly agree on things, the only difference being that I see God as a part of the process and believe that what we're waiting for and are inexorably moving toward is the appearance (for lack of a better word) of God's Kingdom. (Some would say the Second Coming of Jesus.)

There is a Jewish belief that there is a Messiah born every generation.

 

[Jaebius]

There is a Jewish belief that there is a Messiah born every generation.

I don't want to be a Messiah. Messiahs die young.

 

[Mendalla]

I don't want to be a Messiah. Messiahs die young.

If the prayer in Gethsemane is any indication, Jesus had his reluctant moments, too.

“Abba,[a] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

But he also conceded that it wasn't his decision to make.

 

[revsdd]

Fine we disagree, it reminds me of the response of the church to the Manchester Massacre. It was stated love always wins and that they will continue to love their neighbour.....very commendable, except who is actually speaking out or mentioning those children in war that are being murdered in much larger numbers within war zones. The focus was placed more on their own immediate community How can we mourn our own and continue supporting the murder of any innocents around the world? Do the churches say nothing to our representatives about the proliferation of the weapons trade? Do the churches speak out against America because of their military spending? Is this seen as a hands off subject because the churches are delicately avoiding delicate subjects and wanting to appear humble?
In war, terrorism, etc....it's the children I worry about the most....this is not a time for the church to exalt being humble by lowering its voice IMO, sure be humble before God, but humble before man's destructiveness...never!

I would say that the United Church isn't doing nothing, and I wouldn't say that it's only worried about its own backyard:

Social Action

That's just a small sample.

Are we doing everything, everywhere? Nope. Can we? Nope. Can we do more? Probably. Are we ever going to do enough? Probably not. No matter how much the church does, someone's always going to point to something the church isn't doing and say "there - you're useless because you're not doing that."

The church isn't going to change the world. The church might be able to change lives by bearing faithful witness to Jesus and his way. By changing lives the church might eventually change the world, or at least make a difference. But absent the miraculous intervention of God it ain't going to happen overnight. Left to us, it's an incremental process.

You choose to be pessimistic and judgemental about the church's work if you wish to. I will be optimistic and celebrate the work the church does while encouraging it to do more.

 

[Jaebius]

I would say that the United Church isn't doing nothing, and I wouldn't say that it's only worried about its own backyard:

Social Action

That's just a small sample.

Are we doing everything, everywhere? Nope. Can we? Nope. Can we do more? Probably. Are we ever going to do enough? Probably not. No matter how much the church does, someone's always going to point to something the church isn't doing and say "there - you're useless because you're not doing that."

The church isn't going to change the world. The church might be able to change lives by bearing faithful witness to Jesus and his way. By changing lives the church might eventually change the world, or at least make a difference. But absent the miraculous intervention of God it ain't going to happen overnight. Left to us, it's an incremental process.

You choose to be pessimistic and judgemental about the church's work if you wish to. I will be optimistic and celebrate the work the church does while encouraging it to do more.

From what I've seen mostly what the United Church does, beyond hold worship services and business meetings, is rummage sales, ham and potato suppers, and strawberry teas.

 

[revsdd]

From what I've seen mostly what the United Church does, beyond hold worship services and business meetings, is rummage sales, ham and potato suppers, and strawberry teas.

Oh Jae, you're such a jokester.

 

[Waterfall]

I would say that the United Church isn't doing nothing, and I wouldn't say that it's only worried about its own backyard:

Social Action

That's just a small sample.

Are we doing everything, everywhere? Nope. Can we? Nope. Can we do more? Probably. Are we ever going to do enough? Probably not. No matter how much the church does, someone's always going to point to something the church isn't doing and say "there - you're useless because you're not doing that."

The church isn't going to change the world. The church might be able to change lives by bearing faithful witness to Jesus and his way. By changing lives the church might eventually change the world, or at least make a difference. But absent the miraculous intervention of God it ain't going to happen overnight. Left to us, it's an incremental process.

You choose to be pessimistic and judgemental about the church's work if you wish to. I will be optimistic and celebrate the work the church does while encouraging it to do more.

I somewhat resent the label you are placing on me just because I speak of areas that the churches neglect. I will be the first to defend what churches do and have done, but it's not about being a pessimist when I choose to speak out about areas that need attention.

 

[revsdd]

I somewhat resent the label you are placing on me just because I speak of areas that the churches neglect. I will be the first to defend what churches do and have done, but it's not about being a pessimist when I choose to speak out about areas that need attention.

You may be as resentful as you wish. Your emotional response to what I write is obviously your choice.

So far in this discussion you've said that you agree with Graeme (who regularly rails against the church as if we do nothing) and you've said that "evil seems to be overwhelming the churches," that "we are unnerved and resigned to having little effect on terrorism/evil and there seems to be almost an acceptance that things have gone too far to be reversed in the world," that "we tend to nurture the tiny area we live in and act appalled as we lamely watch how other countries are suffering, thanking God we don't live there and refusing to visit."

Sure sounds pessimistic and judgemental to me - and I have no hesitation in saying it.

Seeler's response to you earlier in the thread was "Don't give up hope." Apparently she senses pessimism as well.

 

[revjohn]

I would say that the United Church isn't doing nothing, and I wouldn't say that it's only worried about its own backyard:

I concur though I suspect my role as Clergy in the denomination will be considered a defeating criterion for having anything approaching an unbiased or uncritical lense upon which the Church is observed.

Are we doing everything, everywhere? Nope. Can we? Nope. Can we do more? Probably. Are we ever going to do enough? Probably not. No matter how much the church does, someone's always going to point to something the church isn't doing and say "there - you're useless because you're not doing that."

Judas Syndrome. Critical of money being spent on perfume for Jesus that could have gone to serve the poor, winds up selling Jesus to his enemies for 30 pieces of silver. How many poor did that help?

Criticism is always going to be present, heaven help us should it ever stop, a lot of criticism comes from a hypocritical place. That doesn't automatically invalidate the criticism. It does make it easier to weather.

Brings to mind a conversation between DL Moody and some anonymous woman

Woman: I don't like the way you do evangelism.
Moody: I rather don't care for it myself, tell me, how do you do evangelism?
Woman: I don't
Moody: Well madam I rather prefer the way I do evangelism verses the way you do not do it.

And while the next quote has nothing to do with evangelism it is a sentiment that I find most applicable to the discourse in general.

Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way.

Any who are critical and are not engaged in the activity themselves are not the best voices to be listening to. They may, from their vantage point, see much more clearly mistakes that are being made. If they are more interested in criticizing the mistake than correcting what leads to it they are the poorest of teachers and well worth ignoring.

The church isn't going to change the world. The church might be able to change lives by bearing faithful witness to Jesus and his way. By changing lives the church might eventually change the world, or at least make a difference. But absent the miraculous intervention of God it ain't going to happen overnight. Left to us, it's an incremental process.

Proverbial trees can grow over night. Which is great when you are dealing in proverbs, not so much when you are looking for real life applications.

 

[Waterfall]

You may be as resentful as you wish. Your emotional response to what I write is obviously your choice.

So far in this discussion you've said that you agree with Graeme (who regularly rails against the church as if we do nothing) and you've said that "evil seems to be overwhelming the churches," that "we are unnerved and resigned to having little effect on terrorism/evil and there seems to be almost an acceptance that things have gone too far to be reversed in the world," that "we tend to nurture the tiny area we live in and act appalled as we lamely watch how other countries are suffering, thanking God we don't live there and refusing to visit."

Sure sounds pessimistic and judgemental to me - and I have no hesitation in saying it.

I stand by what I said, better to address issues that are immediate, rather than worry about rankling your pride in what churches have done. Like I said, churches do a lot but I am overwhelmed by the deaths of children through all of this and the lack of a constistent public outcry.

 

[Waterfall]

I concur though I suspect my role as Clergy in the denomination will be considered a defeating criterion for having anything approaching an unbiased or uncritical lense upon which the Church is observed.



Judas Syndrome. Critical of money being spent on perfume for Jesus that could have gone to serve the poor, winds up selling Jesus to his enemies for 30 pieces of silver. How many poor did that help?

Criticism is always going to be present, heaven help us should it ever stop, a lot of criticism comes from a hypocritical place. That doesn't automatically invalidate the criticism. It does make it easier to weather.

Brings to mind a conversation between DL Moody and some anonymous woman

Woman: I don't like the way you do evangelism.
Moody: I rather don't care for it myself, tell me, how do you do evangelism?
Woman: I don't
Moody: Well madam I rather prefer the way I do evangelism verses the way you do not do it.

And while the next quote has nothing to do with evangelism it is a sentiment that I find most applicable to the discourse in general.



Any who are critical and are not engaged in the activity themselves are not the best voices to be listening to. They may, from their vantage point, see much more clearly mistakes that are being made. If they are more interested in criticizing the mistake than correcting what leads to it they are the poorest of teachers and well worth ignoring.


Proverbial trees can grow over night. Which is great when you are dealing in proverbs, not so much when you are looking for real life applications.

A good way to squelch an issue back into passivity.

 

[revsdd]

I stand by what I said, better to address issues that are immediate, rather than worry about rankling your pride in what churches have done. Like I said, churches do a lot but I am overwhelmed by the deaths of children through all of this and the lack of a constistent public outcry.

My "rankled pride"? Is that another example of you not being judgemental?

For the record, I'm not proud. The church is a flawed institution that doesn't do anywhere near enough. But we do some things. So what's your solution?

 

[Waterfall]

My "rankled pride"? Is that another example of you not being judgemental?

For the record, I'm not proud. The church is a flawed institution that doesn't do anywhere near enough. But we do some things. So what's your solution?

Not anymore than labeling me a pessimist. I think we should encourage Graeme to continue to speak out.