And once again I will ask...... Is God telling us anything new by causing people to speak in tongues for Him? Has anything new been added to scripture in other words?
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Most certainly God (the unknown, stranger in some regards) is good at using equivocation to solve the problem with his children who didn't wish to know bear facts or rye wisdom ... thus it was lost between the Lyons ... incarnates as a gate or bridge in some places ...
One has to relate a lot of alien metaphors to catch up with that old lass in the rye ... then who really wishes to know of things form the abstract portion of mine ... a dark deep thingy ... eL Dor a' do ... When out there we'll do fine as far from the limiting moral majority .. a mob sense that excludes us from Solitude ... very distracting or derailing of the previous train of thought that was originally a' priori in some strangers sol ... and integral sense recovered?
In the inquisition many tongues were lashed ... a sort of loche down or lower pool ... 've thoughts or onon-ism ... after the spread of seeds of emotion ... thus occurs seasonally when the trees lose seed and pollen .. the pole 'n often unseen or buried out of sight ... in allergic reaction the words and pronunciation is altered due to lis pes ...
Can appear odd as a whole Nous shoot of thought pops up out of the bush: " I got it" or eureka! Some say hallelujah ... but don't understand for ami nite ... od'ear mon amis ...
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airclean33
Well-Known Member
-- Hi Waterfall-- Many verse have been open to there true meaning. Most Born agains I believe know now are Lord is about to return. They are trying very hard to warn those who have not yet been saved. Waterfall I have been here a wile and always thought of you, as a Christian. If you ask GOD, He would tell you all you wish.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
The purpose of the gift is not novelty in that it creates something previously unknown.
The purpose of the gift, is to facilitate communication. Some of that between ourselves and our neighbours and the rest between ourselves and God.
Always the words spoken in a tongue should be held up to scripture and tested by that. Which is why the gift of interpretation exists and why Paul insists on interpreters being present if tongues is to happen in worship.
If it is just God and I in the conversation then God doesn't need an interpreter.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
--Hi Luce I know you can write in plain English what you want to say, and do it very well. I am not one of some Brothers who follow Christ to only accept you as Christian if you can take in Tongues. It to me is just another step that GOD has given us to work with. The god of this earth sends forth his followers to call it a lie, so be on guard those who speak this Lie come's from there father ,who is the father of Liars and the king of them.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Rev John--May I say my Belief is your off a bit. Tongues are also used for GOD to give prophesy. Many times for what is to come , an at what time. You" can get this from . The Book of Acts. Where peter is speaking of what those around the 120 that came down from the up room were gathered . where" doing and why.
Acts 2: 14---35.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Please Take Note Rev John --That day there where added that day. About three thousand to the church.
Acts 2: 38--42
Acts 2: 38--42
So you speak with the mother of gods ... as Sophocles ... a deviation from the male wisdom?
Does one have to get this duo as deuce ... together once in a while ... to allow continuum of incubus and succubus ... essences occurring in the night ... one male spirit the other female ... discounting the presence of sol at the time ... the thinking process was wandering ...
Later Mere had a lambda ... Greek illumination?
airclean33
Well-Known Member
(So you speak with the mother of gods ... as Sophocles ... a deviation from the male wisdom?) Sorry Luce here we talk of two different GODS . My GOD is The Father not the Mother. Some in my faith have an Idea though. That The Holy Spirit has a feminist side.
Thus departure from the void contained in myth ... as God always looks for something to fill ... some say Aaman's sol was filled with mire ... ah dirt!
Thus the pornography in the old scripts that goes unseen by those near blind to anything suggesting relations ...
Bring on the potter to fertilize the soil ... see what blossoms first ...
revjohn
Well-Known Member
airclean33 said:
I'd prefer that to other options you have availed yourself of. I can handle disagreement.
airclean33 said:
That is not an argument that can be made from scripture. To be fair it isn't a position that can be refuted by scripture either. So, what next?
Do we have scripture telling us that when anyone is prophesying in a tongue that the rules about interpretation are relaxed? No, we don't. Which means that we must still deal with how the gift is used. If tongues are going to be used in worship, they require that they be interpreted. No ifs, no ands, no buts.
Apart from that I don't think that words of prophesy in tongues are not communication which doesn't make me mistaken so much as it means I was not precise enough.
Live revsdd I have witnessed tongues in a worship context and disappointingly the tongues were not another human language but apparently the language of heaven. There was a claim that what was uttered was a prophecy by the individual taking responsibility for translating. The prophecy was reminiscent of psychic John Edward's Crossing Over.
A vague message about a vague event for somebody present. Is that you? Is that you?
Which is not me saying that it wasn't a genuine word of prophecy. It is me saying I did not find it convincingly or compellingly prophetic.
airclean33 said:
airclean33 said:
I think you take liberties with the text.
What is not recorded is what those heard to be speaking in tongues actually said, only that foreign Jews heard them speaking in "their" own tongues. Peter explains what is happening by appealing to scripture, particularly prophetic passages. He never explains that any of those speaking in tongues are uttering prophesies.
You could be right. There is nothing in the text which says you are so it would be fair for you to say, "I believe that this is what is happening." If you think your belief trumps the belief of others with respect to understanding what was going on then you aren't interested in what scripture actually says, you are interested in putting your words into scripture.
That is a form of interpretation called eisegesis, meaning to read into. It is generally a rebuked form of interpretation with most interpreters arguing for exegesis, meaning to read out of.
I find this odd....if God wants to communicate with us personally, why do it in an unknown tongue that cannot be understood by that person? That's not communicating IMO, it's more like confusion (is God the author of confusion?)
According to scripture, is there a record of God speaking through someone with the gift of tongues and the interpretation recorded in the Bible?
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Tis a Strangelove and you know how cliques are about alternate passions ... like alien intelligence ... in a flood of info ... overwhelms those previously misinformed about understanding and passion ... refer to that script where it says there is no love without understanding (or vice versa, if you look at it the other way) there is no understanding without the love of the question about great mysteries and myths!
Sort of parallels that bit about believing Jesus and not consecutively ... like night and day when the lights go out as a sign ... chi could creep on you by mourning what was missed in de night!
Avarice of the mind and essential existential thing that exists only out there ... not in this nutty world filled with pigs and offspring (see the parable of the trough nuts, as related to by Huffington). A ham ... passibly receivable if well salted to kill the gnawing little things in there ... diminishes thinking! Thus the feint images of that man with elephants on the ill's of Rome ... a Hey dais for Lector ...?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
In that you are not alone. In fact several scholars suggest that the idea about some tongues being the language of heaven is a misread of 1 Corinthians 13. I am sympathetic to that line of thought. The same scholars then go on to suggest that Spirit, initiated speech are the known tongues of humanity unknown to the speaker and the groans in the Spirit.
If that is true then it would seem that tongues is a most rare gift since rarely do we see the tongues spoken about in Acts 2 where individuals speak in an unknown earthly tongue. The idea of God speaking a different language does not seem to be something even hinted at in the scriptures. Divine beings speaking a language alien to humanity is something that comes from Greek Culture and not, apparently, Hebrew Culture.
The non-canonical Testament of Job seems to be the open door to this kind of thinking as it records Jobs daughters being given sashes which, when worn, gave them the ability to sing and speak in angelic languages.
Of the early Church Fathers only Irenaus and Tertullian mention Tongues and neither are giving a first-hand account. It is friend of a friend stuff. St. Patrick records a dream he had in which he claims he heard a strange language prayed by the Holy Spirit. That is three mentions of Tongues in writings covering 400 years of Church growth.
And then nobody writes about it for another 700 years until Bernard of Clairvaux and Hildegaard of Bingen mention them. Only Hildegaard is said to have spoken and sung in Tongues. Thomas Aquinas mentions Tongues but only to say that they no longer continue because they are no longer necessary. Then there is another couple hundred years in which they are not mentioned at all. Then we see it in writings about the Moravian and the Camisards and the Quakers.
In the 19th Century speaking in Tongues was a huge deal in Mormonism.
Then, there was the Azusa Street uprising in 1906 and Pentecostalism. Charles Parham, who is considered to be responsible for the Asusa Street event is the first, in Christian theology to posit that the gift of Tongues was evidence that one had been baptized by the Holy Spirit. Parham called Tongues xenoglossia and believed that by utilizing this gift missionaries could communicate with non-English speaking peoples and spread the gospel very quickly. Consistent failures in this exercise led to many of Parham's followers breaking faith with him and leaving his church. And from there the charismatic movement of the 60's spread speaking in Tongues beyond the Pentecostal movement but not, in great numbers.
Waterfall said:
That is a very perceptive question. God doesn't appear to have any difficulty communicating with humanity when God feels the need to.
Waterfall said:
That is a frequent criticism.
Waterfall said:
Not explicitly no.
We wouldn't even know that Paul spoke in Tongues if he didn't mention it himself in 1 Corinthians. He certainly was not recorded speaking in Tongues on the Damascus Road. He lost his sight but continued to speak in ways his companions understood.
Thanks for that informative answer. I've also wondered, even at Pentecost, how someone hearing everything in their own language, would know that wasn't the speakers native language anyway?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
I have heard it said that distinctions in regional dress allowed that distinction to be made. Although I have only heard that said about Galileans who also had a distinctive accent/dialect In a world as crowded as our is is sometimes becomes difficult to tell regional dialects apart. Here in Newfoundland it is still noticeable from village to village depending on where the original settlers came from.
What is really fascinating, from a history perspective is how recent a lot of Christian thought is that proponents would claim is older.
Christian Fundamentalism is more recent than is the Reformed Tradition I adhere to and yet I am constantly being told I'm the liberal. Which I find entertaining. Calvinism, being 300 years older than Christian Fundamentalism is not the recent "liberal" invention.
Yes, good question Waterfall, why.
I believe the #1 way God communicates to us personally is through his word - which has been translated into about 600 languages including English.
As you know John, you're a minister in one of Canada's most-liberal protestant denominations (if not the most-liberal). It would be more surprising if people were not calling you a liberal.