What Do You See?

[blackbelt1961]

The key words in your post are bolded. ALL writers ARE biased. It is just a matter of finding a writer's bias and accounting for it. Even in science, while following proper scientific method and writing style should minimize bias, it can happen.

and I agree with you, but to single out one writer , in this case Paul is not fair , but the level of bias in scripture, namely Paul, Peter , James & John who had a rebirth spiritual experience with Jesus must also be taken into account . Four men, one Spirit

 

[Mendalla]

and I agree with you, but to single out one writer , in this case Paul is not fair , but the level of bias in scripture, namely Paul, Peter , James & John who had a rebirth spiritual experience with Jesus must also be taken into account . Four men, one Spirit

Paul was singled out because Paul wrote Galatians. I'm sure @GordW would happily agree that the others had their biases, too.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Paul was singled out because Paul wrote Galatians.

which still is not fair to single Paul out on the basses of his authorship without looking at the evidence of the rest of scripture first

 

[Waterfall]

yet it was Paul who had to correct Peter, sounds like a movable rock to me


Galatians 2:11-13

And it was Jesus' brother, James the Just who had to correct them both.....James was the head of the church in Jerusalem, not Peter.
Peter defers to James authority.

As an extra biblical source, the Gospel of Thomas offers Jesus as saying:

1.) The disciples said to Jesus, "we know that you will depart from us, who then will rule over us?"

2.) And Jesus said to them, "no matter where you come from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

 

[GeoFee]

Nice to listen in on the conversation. Has me thinking.

The question Jesus puts to the disciples about what others say and what the disciples say is quite like the statement Socrates makes in one of Plato's dialogs. Para-phrased from memory: "I am not looking for what others say. I am looking for what you say." In both Jesus and Socrates we are presented with the matter of personal responsibility. We are also introduced to the notion of inner enlightenment.

The community of faith is diverse in its membership. Many identities and many capacities blended in devoted service to a common purpose. Most simply, the purpose of a full inclusion of all in the common good; "on earth as it is in heaven". The elimination of the wall which separates "us" from "them". Paul notices the breaking down of the wall between Jesus and Socrates somewhere in Ephesians. He does not put in quite this way. (Ephesians 2:14)

The apostles has differing perspectives on their relationship with their friend and mentor, Jesus. We see them quarreling about who is greatest as they follow in the way. Following the crucifixion and the resurrection, as the story goes, the differences persist. The logistical challenge remains even when the spiritual problem is resolved. Where the light is on difference may be negotiated and common ground established. Not so in the dark.

Have to get supper out of the oven. Will stay tuned.

George

 

[unsafe]

GordW ---Your Quote ----
Actually when the disciples said "Some say..." they are in fact answering the question they were asked, not just relying on what others said. Then Jesus point blank asks "Who do ?YOU say I am?" and the only response the Gospel writer records is Peter's, we don't know how/if the others would have answered the second question. That is exactly what the text you posted says.

You are right here ---my bad ------they were answering His question -------Thanks for the correction -----verse 13 --and 14 go together-- “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

Peter's Declaration about Jesus(H)
13 Jesus went to the territory near the town of Caesarea Philippi, where he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 (I)“Some say John the Baptist,” they answered. “Others say Elijah, while others say Jeremiah or some other prophet.”
15 “What about you?” he asked them. “Who do you say I am?”
16 (J)Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 “Good for you, Simon son of John!” answered Jesus. “For this truth did not come to you from any human being, but it was given to you directly by my Father in heaven.18 And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it.

 

[GordW]

Paul was singled out because Paul wrote Galatians. I'm sure @GordW would happily agree that the others had their biases, too.

Indeed. TO put it plainly, we know that the early church wrestled with what it meant to expand the movement to the Gentile population and how they would do that. We also know that Paul saw his primary calling as being the apostle to the Gentiles. And we now that in the end it was determined that the Gentile converts did not need to follow Jewish law and practice. But that is as far as we can say with any degree of certainty.

We are not privy to exactly how the discussions about how Gentiles would be assumed into the community went. WE don't know who said waht, who convinced who, who chastised who...

 

[Neo]

why did you leave out Moses & Elijah? & Christs Transfiguration into glory?, I believe many are hungry for the Truth

You're right, I didn't mention the other players at the Transfiguration. In addition to the three-fold personality, represented by the three disciples, Jesus also united within Himself the past and the future, as signified by the appearance of Moses and Elias, the respective representatives of the great and established Law of Moses and the Prophets, the ones who foretold the coming of the Messiah.

***

Starting with the cave (or manger) experience, the Birth of Christ, and then the stream experience, the Baptism of Christ, the mountain experience, the Transfiguration of Christ is the 3rd of 5 major steps played out in the Gospel Story. The Transfiguration is where the at-tone-ment of the integrated personality unites the soul and body. It shows us the perfected man, whereas in the next mountain experience, the Crucifixion, we see the Christ stand forth as a perfect Son of God. The last and final step of the way, (as far as mankind is concerned), is another cave experience, and is the final Resurrection from the thraldom of matter and form.

 

[Luce NDs]

why did you leave out Moses & Elijah? & Christs Transfiguration into glory?, I believe many are hungry for the Truth

Light just Moe Zae's along regardless of the dark emotions ...

 

[Luce NDs]

You're right, I didn't mention the other players at the Transfiguration. In addition to the three-fold personality, represented by the three disciples, Jesus also united within Himself the past and the future, as signified by the appearance of Moses and Elias, the respective representatives of the great and established Law of Moses and the Prophets, the ones who foretold the coming of the Messiah.

***

Starting with the cave (or manger) experience, the Birth of Christ, and then the stream experience, the Baptism of Christ, the mountain experience, the Transfiguration of Christ is the 3rd of 5 major steps played out in the Gospel Story. The Transfiguration is where the at-tone-ment of the integrated personality unites the soul and body. It shows us the perfected man, whereas in the next mountain experience, the Crucifixion, we see the Christ stand forth as a perfect Son of God. The last and final step of the way, (as far as mankind is concerned), is another cave experience, and is the final Resurrection from the thraldom of matter and form.

Resulting in a proposition and the counter prop adding up to nothing ...

What adolescents do in dark spaces ... adults have a crisis about this at some time in life; wishing they'd been smarter at it ...

 

[blackbelt1961]

You're right, I didn't mention the other players at the Transfiguration.

which gives your belief a new meaning

In addition to the three-fold personality, represented by the three disciples, Jesus also united within Himself the past and the future, as signified by the appearance of Moses and Elias, the respective representatives of the great and established Law of Moses and the Prophets, the ones who foretold the coming of the Messiah.

or the 3 could have simply been witnesses to the Glory & True nature of Christ

 

[Neo]

In addition to the three-fold personality, represented by the three disciples, Jesus also united within Himself the past and the future, as signified by the appearance of Moses and Elias, the respective representatives of the great and established Law of Moses and the Prophets, the ones who foretold the coming of the Messiah.

or the 3 could have simply been witnesses to the Glory & True nature of Christ

It could've been, I'm just offering up some food for thought, alternative ways of reading the Bible in a new light. What we see in the Bible is subject to how we see. Reading the Bible literally without the use of symbols can and does lead to confusion and contradictions. Symbols, allegories, parables, all help us to see with new eyes.

 

[Jaebius]

It could've been, I'm just offering up some food for thought, alternative ways of reading the Bible in a new light. What we see in the Bible is subject to how we see. Reading the Bible literally without the use of symbols can and does lead to confusion and contradictions. Symbols, allegories, parables, all help us to see with new eyes.

Some have been in the evangelical church so long that they can't see in fresh ways. I'm speaking in general here. They have heard the same message over and over again and are unable to move beyond turn or burn.

 

[blackbelt1961]

It could've been, I'm just offering up some food for thought, alternative ways of reading the Bible in a new light. What we see in the Bible is subject to how we see. Reading the Bible literally without the use of symbols can and does lead to confusion and contradictions. Symbols, allegories, parables, all help us to see with new eyes.

the problem with " how we see" is that if it be true that we do have with in us this spiritual disease called sin , would it not affect how "we see", and how could we best avoid error?

 

[Waterfall]

GordW ---Your Quote ----

Actually when the disciples said "Some say..." they are in fact answering the question they were asked, not just relying on what others said. Then Jesus point blank asks "Who do ?YOU say I am?" and the only response the Gospel writer records is Peter's, we don't know how/if the others would have answered the second question. That is exactly what the text you posted says.

You are right here ---my bad ------they were answering His question -------Thanks for the correction -----verse 13 --and 14 go together-- “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

Peter's Declaration about Jesus(H)
13 Jesus went to the territory near the town of Caesarea Philippi, where he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 (I)“Some say John the Baptist,” they answered. “Others say Elijah, while others say Jeremiah or some other prophet.”
15 “What about you?” he asked them. “Who do you say I am?”
16 (J)Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 “Good for you, Simon son of John!” answered Jesus. “For this truth did not come to you from any human being, but it was given to you directly by my Father in heaven.18 And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it.

And yet, shortly afterwards, doesn't Peter cut off the ear of a Roman soldier and go on to deny Jesus 3 times? He may have believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but he doesn't always seem to "get" Jesus message.

 

[Jaebius]

And yet, shortly afterwards, doesn't Peter cut off the ear of a Roman soldier and go on to deny Jesus 3 times? He may have believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but he doesn't always seem to "get" Jesus message.

Peter was an emotional guy. It could just be that he let his emotions take over sometimes.

 

[Neo]

And even today, people who believe Jesus to be the Messiah don't always seemed to get His message. One only has to suggest an alternative way of reading scripture and they are (indirectly) accused of suffering from a spiritual disease.

Emotions can be our biggest millstone, they are reactions from the gut and ignore the head and the heart. If anything affects how we see the truth, misdirected emotions would have to be right up there. It has nothing to do with "sin".

 

[Jaebius]

And even today, people who believe Jesus to be the Messiah don't always seemed to get His message. One only has to suggest an alternative way of reading scripture and they are (indirectly) accused of suffering from a spiritual disease.

Emotions can be our biggest millstone, they are reactions from the gut and ignore the head and the heart. If anything affects how we see the truth, misdirected emotions would have to be right up there. It has nothing to do with "sin".

What distinction do you make between emotions on the one hand and what is coming from the heart on the other?

 

[blackbelt1961]

And even today, people who believe Jesus to be the Messiah don't always seemed to get His message. One only has to suggest an alternative way of reading scripture and they are (indirectly) accused of suffering from a spiritual disease.

same as thous that believe Jesus is not the Messiah and believe they get His message more so than thous who do .

so what was Pauls life like before his spiritual rebirth on his way to Damascus? I mean Paul was against the christians thinking he was a good Jew.

Emotions can be our biggest millstone, they are reactions from the gut and ignore the head and the heart. If anything affects how we see the truth, misdirected emotions would have to be right up there. It has nothing to do with "sin".

so we have Paul's spiritual conversion , before this event , what was his problem in persecuting christians ? was it simple emotions that God had to intervene and in a blink of an eye change his nature to the point that Paul will ultimately give his own life for Christ

sounds like more that just simple emotions since Paul still has his emotions intact after the conversion, but somehow all changed , sounds like a spiritual issue to me

 

[Neo]

same as thous that believe Jesus is not the Messiah and believe they get His message more so than thous who do .

so what was Pauls life like before his spiritual rebirth on his way to Damascus? I mean Paul was against the christians thinking he was a good Jew.

so we have Paul's spiritual conversion , before this event , what was his problem in persecuting christians ? was it simple emotions that God had to intervene and in a blink of an eye change his nature to the point that Paul will ultimately give his own life for Christ

sounds like more that just simple emotions since Paul still has his emotions intact after the conversion, but somehow all changed , sounds like a spiritual issue to me

I suppose... but that's not me. If a new born Christian reads the Bible literally, and in my mind incorrectly, then I would be the last person to suggest that he or she suffers from some kind of "spiritual disease". The only difference I see between any one of us is our level of awareness. People only sin out of ignorance. If they were more emotionally, mentally and spiritually aware then sinning would become less and less of an issue in their lives.

I do believe that people change, however, and that some kind of spiritual influence can and does invoke a change in us. This is can be as dramatic as the way you feel after a night of bad dreaming and you wake up in the morning to what seems like a brand new and refreshing state of awareness. Awareness can have that kind of impact on us. Waking up in the morning is like being born again where we awaken to a new way of looking at life. The world hasn't changed but with fresh eyes it appears different. But, and I can't stress this point anymore, those who are still asleep do not have a spiritual disease, they are simply still asleep. The idea of original sin and the consequences that are derived from such a doctrine is somebody's theology. Those that say it's "Biblical" do so because of interpretation. I personally don't read the Bible that way and should't be accused of having a spiritual disease because I do so.

Many Christians believe that the only thing that's required of them is to wake up from their bad dream and to believe in Jesus and give Him the heart. This makes sense at the very start, after all before anyone can actually walk they have to first believe they can start moving and then have to have some degree of faith that they can actually start walking. But where I disagree is when this kind of belief extends to the idea that just because one professes themselves to Jesus they are magically and automatically enrolled in a special club of "knowers", and that everyone who is not in this club must be therefore sinners, liars and diseased. This is when these particular Christians live primarily in the emotions, ignoring all logic and wisdom. A closed mind is a dogmatic mind and a closed heart is not one with Christ. Imho.