Interventionist God or Non Interventionist God?

[Seeler]

Thanks for jumping in!

I have the same impression of Geering and I believe he influenced Gretta's thinking a fair bit. Ditto for Don Cupitt.

One of my frustrations with the Vosper controversy is that many who support her seem to think she is a Progressive Christian of the same ilk as Borg and Crossan.

Bishop Spong has me baffled. He has been very outspoken in his endorsement of Gretta and according to her, encouraged her to "go farther" than he was able to go. But in his early books, at least, he spoke of a very strong faith in God.

I run into this in my church too - people comparing Greta to Borg or Crossan. Both spent their lifetime studying and teaching the Bible which she rejects. Both claim a strong belief in God.

Spong - I know that he encouraged and supported Greta in her early years- but I don't remember seeing or hearing anything about his continued agreement with her as she moved further away from the Bible and belief in God. I think at some point they turned in different directions. His book "A New Christianity for a New World" ends with this sentence - "I yearn for it to succeed so that my grandchildren can say, 'God is real to me,, and Jesus is my doorway into this reality.'" I don't think Greta would say the same.

 

[paradox3]

@Seeler.

When the intended review of Vosper was announced, Spong posted an open letter which was entitled "Call your church back from this precipice" and it was strongly supportive of Gretta. I have long suspected he backs her without fully understanding her point of view.

In the Foreword to With or Without God, he wrote these words:

"Gretta Vosper writes to make the God she worships clear."

I would say this is a serious misread of her book. He also said:

"The members of her congregation know her, love her, and trust her. They have indicated not just a willingness to walk with her, but great joy in doing so."

I guess no one told Bishop Spong that a profound split in the congregation was underway in 2008.

 

[paradox3]

I run into this in my church too - people comparing Greta to Borg or Crossan. Both spent their lifetime studying and teaching the Bible which she rejects. Both claim a strong belief in God.

Some (not all) of the letters to the Observer do the same.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Spong wrote in defense of her following the scheduling of her review, so I would guess that he understands, in some fashion, where she is. He, too, talks a lot about non-theism and post-theism, so I suspect he's possibly closer to her theology than either Borg or Crossan.

 

[paradox3]

Spong wrote in defense of her following the scheduling of her review, so I would guess that he understands, in some fashion, where she is. He, too, talks a lot about non-theism and post-theism, so I suspect he's possibly closer to her theology than either Borg or Crossan.

Can't speak to whether he has started to understand her better in recent years but I really question if he was "getting" her back in 2008 when he wrote the Foreword to WWG.

It is also possible that he has moved further along the spectrum himself and is now closer to Vosper than Borg or Crossan. I confess I have not kept up with his writing over the last several years.

 

[Luce NDs]

If god is the bible ... is everything contained in that tome in cryptic linguistics?

Who rendered the misconception that it was clear? There are suggestions that it says man will be smudged in hell ... more smoke and MIR to come?

Did you know that mire is carnal dirt ... and MIR is space in Cyrillic evolution of linguistics ... some say language did not evolve and thus Christ spoke to some aesthetics in the middle ages as mean to the greater populace ...

Does this loupe around and reoccur as Christ Syndrome of returning light about what was fore given and fore got ... prescience?

That's the word ... enigma from one daze 'n ... previous Blackout there ...

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I'm loathed to understand the question and why you posted it. To be a theist means your god governs all creation and is liable to intervene or has intervened in your lives. To be a deist means he remains indifferent and as such hasn't or doesn't intervene.
So unless you're a deist why is the question even there. Or are you simply trying to garner whether there are any deists in this community.

 

[Mendalla]

I'm loathed to understand the question and why you posted it. To be a theist means your god governs all creation and is liable to intervene or has intervened in your lives. To be a deist means he remains indifferent and as such hasn't or doesn't intervene.
So unless you're a deist why is the question even there. Or are you simply trying to garner whether there are any deists in this community.

If you read through the thread, you may see that there is a bit more nuance than that when you start getting into what people actually mean by "God intervening". God's intervention may be direct (the miraculous, burning bush type of thing) or more indirect (giving guidance and inspiring action on the part of the others). Process theology, for instance, says that God intervenes but not in a splashy, direct, miracle sort of way. That understanding of God postulates God "luring" or guiding creation without necessarily taking direct action (miracles). If that nuance does not interest you, then your answer is quite correct, though.

 

[Dave Henderson]

I pretty much know what arguments for faith fly with the Christians here. I've been around for a while. The argument you used wasn't something most people here would jump on board with. You have unsafe and airclean and blackbelt cheering for you, though. And that's its own sort of Trinity.


With faith, formulas are never that easy. Gretta Vosper, who is your inspiration, has already wrecked one formula by growing West Hill in the absence of God in her church. Other, very faithful churches have failed. There is no simple math formula at work here.

I more suggest there is a recipe book, and different people will react more positively with different recipes within the book. Some will find a recipe they mostly like, but will want it personalìzed to their tastes. And for some, God is a bitter ingredient they can entirely do without.

Hi Chansen, I want to say from the outset that I am very uncomfortable commenting on Ms. Vosper, her church and her ministry, since this is a human resources issue now and as such should be treated with both sensitivity and circumspection. But since it has become a very public issue, I will reluctantly discuss some aspects of it. Newspaper reports state that Ms. Vosper's congregation is about 70 people. This is in Scarborough, a community with a population of more than 625,000. I worship at a church in Pembroke Ontario with a Sunday morning attendance that is also about 70 people, with a regional population base of about 35,000 people. I bring this up only because you state that "Gretta Vosper...[is] growing West Hill..." The evidence would suggest that West Hill is surviving, but not particularly growing. Again, I am not stating this in a mean spirited way. I wish Ms. Vosper and the West Hill congregation all the best. At the same time, it is my belief and the stated belief of the United Church of Canada that leaders in the church be in essential agreement with the existence of God, His son Jesus, who is the namesake of their faith, (that is Christ...Christian) and the Holy Spirit as revealed to us.

 

[Waterfall]

I'm loathed to understand the question and why you posted it. To be a theist means your god governs all creation and is liable to intervene or has intervened in your lives. To be a deist means he remains indifferent and as such hasn't or doesn't intervene.
So unless you're a deist why is the question even there. Or are you simply trying to garner whether there are any deists in this community.

Personally, I'm trying to wade through the confusion. Scripture tells us that God is not the author of confusion so it makes me wonder how we can have so many different ideas about God that often contradict each other.
I believe God wants His followers to be on the same page in essential areas, but obviously, we seem to be all over the map with whether God intervenes or not. How can Christians proclaim the gospel when we all interpret scripture so differently?

 

[chansen]

I'm going to start by pulling this out, because it insults the senses:

I wish Ms. Vosper and the West Hill congregation all the best.

No, you don't. You wish them homeless.

Why do people mindlessly say things like this that clearly are not true? Just because it's the nice thing to say? Because "wishing them the best" is the expected thing to say?

No, you clearly want to see them turfed out, which means they will lose their building at the least. It is what it is.

Hi Chansen, I want to say from the outset that I am very uncomfortable commenting on Ms. Vosper, her church and her ministry, since this is a human resources issue now and as such should be treated with both sensitivity and circumspection. But since it has become a very public issue, I will reluctantly discuss some aspects of it. Newspaper reports state that Ms. Vosper's congregation is about 70 people. This is in Scarborough, a community with a population of more than 625,000. I worship at a church in Pembroke Ontario with a Sunday morning attendance that is also about 70 people, with a regional population base of about 35,000 people. I bring this up only because you state that "Gretta Vosper...[is] growing West Hill..." The evidence would suggest that West Hill is surviving, but not particularly growing. Again, I am not stating this in a mean spirited way. I wish Ms. Vosper and the West Hill congregation all the best. At the same time, it is my belief and the stated belief of the United Church of Canada that leaders in the church be in essential agreement with the existence of God, His son Jesus, who is the namesake of their faith, (that is Christ...Christian) and the Holy Spirit as revealed to us.

If you want to use math, use it properly. To get anywhere close to that comparison, first take the population of Scarborough, and divide it by the number of United Churches that serve it. Now you have a ballpark approximation of the local population West Hill can be expected to serve. My nine-year-old daughter would know to do this. To skip this obvious first step is to skew things in favour of your argument so transparently that you're either completely innumerate or you think you can put one over on us.

Besides, by "growing", I mean that, year over year, West Hill is currently gaining members. That's growing. It shrunk before. I get that. It shrunk bigly. But now it's growing.

I think the UCCan assumed she would fail and they wouldn't have to do anything. West Hill would just be another United Church in the GTA with regrettable architecture in a neighbourhood with a growing recent immigrant population that has existing connections to different chuches, that can not hold on and closes or amalgamates with a neighbouring church, and that's that. Didn't happen. Now the UCCan has to force the issue.

As for the "...existence of God, His son Jesus, who is the namesake of their faith, (that is Christ...Christian) and the Holy Spirit as revealed to us," you can't reveal it at all. You talk about it. You make proclamations that are as fact-based as the Trump administration's inauguration attendance figures. But you have nothing revealed, and everything concealed. You believe on faith alone. And while many are saying how wrong Gretta Vosper is, I think it's important to point out that the standards you wish to impose on her are not based on anything you can reveal to anyone else.

 

[revsdd]

I'm loathed to understand the question and why you posted it. To be a theist means your god governs all creation and is liable to intervene or has intervened in your lives. To be a deist means he remains indifferent and as such hasn't or doesn't intervene.
So unless you're a deist why is the question even there. Or are you simply trying to garner whether there are any deists in this community.

Way, way too simplistic an analysis.

 

[Waterfall]

There's another thread for the Vosper discussion.

 

[paradox3]

There's another thread for the Vosper discussion.

True enough but I am not surprised the issue has popped up here.

 

[paradox3]

Actually, the more I think about it the more I think Vosper is relevant to the discussion on this thread.

For a few years I believed Gretta was talking about a non-interventionist God. But it turned out I was misunderstanding her and she was talking about either no God or "god" as a metaphor for values.

It can be confusing, right?

 

[Dave Henderson]

There's another thread for the Vosper discussion.

Hi Waterfall, You are correct. And I didn't want to or intend to start a big side conversation about Gretta Vosper. Sorry to "intervene" in your thread. ;-)

 

[Dave Henderson]

I'm going to start by pulling this out, because it insults the senses:

No, you don't. You wish them homeless.

Why do people mindlessly say things like this that clearly are not true? Just because it's the nice thing to say? Because "wishing them the best" is the expected thing to say?

No, you clearly want to see them turfed out, which means they will lose their building at the least. It is what it is.



If you want to use math, use it properly. To get anywhere close to that comparison, first take the population of Scarborough, and divide it by the number of United Churches that serve it. Now you have a ballpark approximation of the local population West Hill can be expected to serve. My nine-year-old daughter would know to do this. To skip this obvious first step is to skew things in favour of your argument so transparently that you're either completely innumerate or you think you can put one over on us.

Besides, by "growing", I mean that, year over year, West Hill is currently gaining members. That's growing. It shrunk before. I get that. It shrunk bigly. But now it's growing.

I think the UCCan assumed she would fail and they wouldn't have to do anything. West Hill would just be another United Church in the GTA with regrettable architecture in a neighbourhood with a growing recent immigrant population that has existing connections to different chuches, that can not hold on and closes or amalgamates with a neighbouring church, and that's that. Didn't happen. Now the UCCan has to force the issue.

As for the "...existence of God, His son Jesus, who is the namesake of their faith, (that is Christ...Christian) and the Holy Spirit as revealed to us," you can't reveal it at all. You talk about it. You make proclamations that are as fact-based as the Trump administration's inauguration attendance figures. But you have nothing revealed, and everything concealed. You believe on faith alone. And while many are saying how wrong Gretta Vosper is, I think it's important to point out that the standards you wish to impose on her are not based on anything you can reveal to anyone else.

Hi Chansen, As I just said Waterfall, I didn't want to start a big side conversation about Ms. Vosper. And I don't want to start splitting hairs with you or anyone else regarding her or West Hill United. As I said, I entered the conversation reluctantly. I related the number of people attending Ms. Vosper's services based on a newspaper report. That is all the attributable information I have. To go any further will simply take the conversation into conjecture. Being a current human resources issue before the United Church of Canada, and lacking any current substantial information, I am choosing not to discuss it in a more detailed way at this time. I'm not trying to dodge your assertions. I am simply choosing to withdraw from the conversation given that it's a human resources issue and we seem to be heading into a conversation that involves speculation, conjecture and assumption.

 

[paradox3]

Fair enough @Dave Henderson.

But keep in mind that WHUC and Gretta herself are not exactly keeping this under wraps!

 

[Dave Henderson]

Fair enough @Dave Henderson.

But keep in mind that WHUC and Gretta herself are not exactly keeping this under wraps!

Hi Paradox3. You are certainly correct about that! I'm sure you will agree though, that we don't want to venture into areas that will involve conjecture or assumptions. That's not fair to any of the parties involved.

 

[Mendalla]

We have had myriad threads for Gretta Vosper. One of the frustrations that led me to propose having a single thread for all things West Hill last year was just this: a perfectly good thread on a perfectly good theological subject turning into another West Hill thread. IOW, please take the Vosper discussion to UCCan Talk and let's hear what people here think about God and divine intervention in the world.