The Rev. Vosper Again

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If you need to hear that you have to believe that there is only one God and He killed his own son for your benefit, and those who don't believe and don't follow His arbitrary rules are due some form of terrible punishment, then you're an idiot.

I don't think you're due any more or less punishment than me. I just think it takes a special brand of stupid in this information age to (a) believe it, and (b) need to feel superior to others based on some random ancient fairy tale.
 
Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:
Find popular culture in his quotes.
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You don't have to; you just have to ponder the results of the last American election. Evangelical Christianity is part and parcel of the same phenomenon. Feed them answers, keep them entertained with technology and loud repetitive statements.
 
chansen said:
If you need to hear that you have to believe that there is only one God and He killed his own son for your benefit, and those who don't believe and don't follow His arbitrary rules are due some form of terrible punishment, then you're an idiot.

I don't think you're due any more or less punishment than me. I just think it takes a special brand of stupid in this information age to (a) believe it, and (b) need to feel superior to others based on some random ancient fairy tale.
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On the other hand, despite my assertion elsewhere, it appears to be a condition of humanity that they trend towards a judgmentalism so complete that it breaks out in state murder. I sometimes wonder that we have a relationship with the U.S. at all. If I were Benevolent Dictator For Life, I would suspend diplomatic relationships with the U.S. until they banned state-sanctioned murder.
 
We should all be racing towards a status where, first, there is adequate (food, water, shelter, justice, human rights) for everyone world wide. Then, if there's any left over, we can determine a just distribution of it, perhaps based on the concept of "value added" activity, which would remove the necessity for management/administrative staff everywhere, and let the workers get a little extra to keep.
 
Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:
He challenged Christians to step up and use their power as a group. You should be very worried. VERY WORRIED.
VERY VERY VERY WORRIED.
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The Christian Church has rarely been a monolithic body on any issue. SO the vaunted power is dubious at best. A remembered story...

A friend of mine was once part of the brief committee in SK conference. Their job was to make presentations to the provincial government. When a new government came in (I think it was the PC government of Grant Devine) they changed the rules so that all church groups needed to come and make presentations at the same time. It was a stroke of political genius, because often that various presentations were at odd with each other. This allowed the government to listen and then do as they wished anyway.

I suspect that often in recent history when people have called on the church to use their power as a group they actually mean a select portion of the church on a specific issue, and often backed by lots of money.
 
So I managed to watch the Trump video. 4:42 of - well - Trump. He doesn't really say very much about the so-called "war on Christianity." He takes some shots at Muslims, and some shots at Obama (who's now "a great guy," by the way, since they met at the White House.) He laments that Christians don't have "power" anymore - I think he meant political power because he spoke of lobbies and voting blocs. (I didn't know we were supposed to have such power.) The only concrete example he gives of a sign of the "war on Christianity" is that people don't say "Merry Christmas" in department stores anymore. Wow. That's what I call persecution. I find it hilarious in one sense and infuriating in another that Jesus tells his followers to expect persecution, and then Christians in this part of the world whine and cry over petty little things that don't affect our ability to be Christians one single iota. Truly sad.

There is, of course, no "war on Christianity" in the United States. Or in Canada for that matter. That WalMart greeters not saying "Merry Christmas" is considered to be part of a "war on Christianity" is ridiculous and offensive to the hundreds of thousands (even millions) of Christians who are regularly persecuted for their faith in various parts of the world. There is, perhaps, a battle against the concept of Christian privilege, and against the idea that "Christianity" or "Christian values" should control the state and be enforced by the state. Of course, if that were the case then we'd be little different from the Islamic theocracies that so many evangelical/conservative Christians rail against on a regular basis. As Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." Interesting, then, that Jesus' followers (at least some of them) want to establish a de facto earthly Kingdom in Jesus' name - certainly raising the question of how closely they're following the way of Jesus, and how closely they just want power for the sake of having power and forcing a particular world view on others. It's a weak faith that feels dependent on the state to help propagate the faith and that feels threatened when the state chooses not to do so anymore. A very weak faith.
 
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A United Church minister "liking" a post of mine where I use the term "flying f***" is exactly why Wondercafe2 matters. How many places are there where people of such different beliefs, styles and temperaments, can come together and find common ground so often?

You guys are great. And I'm not drinking.
 
revsdd said:
So I managed to watch the Trump video. 4:42 of - well - Trump. He doesn't really say very much about the so-called "war on Christianity." He takes some shots at Muslims, and some shots at Obama (who's now "a great guy," by the way, since they met at the White House.) He laments that Christians don't have "power" anymore - I think he meant political power because he spoke of lobbies and voting blocs. (I didn't know we were supposed to have such power.) The only concrete example he gives of a sign of the "war on Christianity" is that people don't say "Merry Christmas" in department stores anymore. Wow. That's what I call persecution. I find it hilarious in one sense and infuriating in another that Jesus tells his followers to expect persecution, and then Christians in this part of the world whine and cry over petty little things that don't affect our ability to be Christians one single iota. Truly sad.

There is, of course, no "war on Christianity" in the United States. Or in Canada for that matter. That WalMart greeters not saying "Merry Christmas" is considered to be part of a "war on Christianity" is ridiculous and offensive to the hundreds of thousands (even millions) of Christians who are regularly persecuted for their faith in various parts of the world. There is, perhaps, a battle against the concept of Christian privilege, and there is the idea that "Christianity" or "Christian values" should control the state and be enforced by the state. Of course, if that were the case then we'd be little different from the Islamic theocracies that so many evangelical/conservative Christians rail against on a regular basis. As Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." Interesting, then, that Jesus' followers (at least some of them) want to establish a de facto earthly Kingdom in Jesus' name - certainly raising the question of how closely they're following the way of Jesus, and how closely they just want power for the sake of having power and forcing a particular world view on others. It's a weak faith that feels dependent on the state to help propagate the faith and that feels threatened when the state chooses not to do so anymore. A very weak faith.
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I watched a very good (and very long) documentary last night on PBS about the Reformation....from Jesus to the present. It's true, whenever the churches got involved with the state or pissed them off, it produced some of the bloodiest times in Christian history.

Documentary..."The Reformation: This Changed Everything"
 
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chansen said:
A United Church minister "liking" a post of mine where I use the term "flying f***" is exactly why Wondercafe2 matters. How many places are there where people of such different beliefs, styles and temperaments, can come together and find common ground so often?

You guys are great. And I'm not drinking.
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Well, Jesus loves you.

 
Question: what state is there other than "involved with the state" (which I'd argue Xianity is at present, by accepting tax exempt status in exchange for not talking about politics) or "pissing them off" (which I'd argue we probably should be doing more of)?
 
GordW said:
CHurches in Canada, historically, have grown for two main reasons: immigration and birth rate. The second is the main reason the UCCan reached what it believed to be the "new normal" in the Baby Boom years. However, as @chansen loves to point out, the birthrate growth is no longer reliable as (nor has it been for the last 40-50 years). And the UCCan has never done well with immigration-based growth, largely because there is no equivalent church that people come from to slide across to the UCCan (as opposed to international denominations like Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Baptist....)
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With the Vosper situation front and center we might be at a bit of a crossroads in the United Church. I wonder how the outcome of her hearing will affect our numbers and our future.
 
revsdd said:
Interesting that you think evangelicals can be identified by what denomination they belong to. It helps of course by giving you the opportunity to dismiss him.
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Prove me wrong then Steven. Show how he's an evangelical. I've but given a piece of evidence that suggests otherwise.
 
Jae said:
Prove me wrong then Steven. Show how he's an evangelical. I've but given a piece of evidence that suggests otherwise.
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You've given no evidence. You've told us what denomination he belongs to. That's not evidence of whether a person is or is not an evangelical - a term, by the way, for which there is no precise and universally accepted definition. But if you prefer, we'll call Coren a Christian who used to believe that same sex marriage was wrong and now doesn't.
 
revsdd said:
You've given no evidence. You've told us what denomination he belongs to. That's not evidence of whether a person is or is not an evangelical - a term, by the way, for which there is no precise and universally accepted definition. But if you prefer, we'll call Coren a Christian who used to believe that same sex marriage was wrong and now doesn't.
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As you know full well Steven, certain Canadian denominations are known as evangelical and others are not. The Anglican church of Canada belongs to a different set of denominations, normatively called mainline. That Coren belongs to said denomination is a piece of evidence that he is not an evangelical. However, that is not to say that there is no such thing as an evangelical Anglican. If you believe Coren is one, let's hear you substantiate that. I will be mindful that your evidence is being presented by you, a leader yourself in a mainline denomination.
 
Jae said:
As you know full well Steven, certain Canadian denominations are known as evangelical and others are not. The Anglican church of Canada belongs to a different set of denominations, normatively called mainline. That Coren belongs to said denomination is a piece of evidence that he is not an evangelical. However, that is not to say that there is no such thing as an evangelical Anglican. If you believe Coren is one, let's hear you substantiate that. I will be mindful that your evidence is being presented by you, a leader yourself in a mainline denomination.
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Be mindful of whatever you want. I couldn't care less, and I'm not playing the game. As I've said, we'll call Coren a Christian who used to oppose same sex marriage who now agrees with it. I'm still interested in knowing your definition of an evangelical, since - as you note yourself, the denomination that a person belongs to doesn't make one an evangelical or not.
 
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