TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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Waterfall said:
Well there are all sorts of "power" options. Jesus just used another form.
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Hi Waterfall..

This may not be the place to explore this line of thought but it is worth exploring. It seems to me that the gospel writers represent Jesus exercising the authority of God outside the structures of religious and political power by which people and land are being governed (exploited and oppressed). Does his baptism not signify withdrawal (death) from one way of being in the world and engagement (resurrection) by another way. I see this made plain in the temptation narratives where the ruler of this world (power) offers Jesus opportunity for the exercise of power. Jesus says no.

If you like, perhaps you might indicate where you see Jesus exercising a form of the "power" option?

George
 
Hi Kimmio....

Thanks for your thoughts. Many historic civilizations have achieved what is now manifest as our experience. The pattern is quite clear. First power is distributed through the whole. Then an aspect achieves and maintains a power advantage. The power advantage is cumulative and produces a power pyramid. Great benefit accrues to a minority of "powerful" persons. This at the expense of the majority of persons and the natural world we all inhabit.

I have no doubt that there are many who seek the exercise of power with good intention. At times there are some signs of good outcomes. Over time the power corrodes both intention and outcome. We are now at the critical juncture. Persistence in the pursuit of power will take us into the realm of catastrophe. Would be delighted to have it come out differently but history offers me little encouragement. Here today, as in all places and times, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.
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Frodo is a fictional character who is given the responsibility of carrying power to a destination and divesting himself of that power on arrival. All along the way the entrusted power seeks to seduce him and draw him out of his purpose and into conformity with the lord of power. From my perspective this well pictures the journey of Jesus from Nazareth to Jerusalem.
 
Cool Kimmio yer ztudyin Positive n Negative rights

For fun you should try to identify what are positive n negative rights in the following:

1. The stereotypical 10 commandments
2. USA constitution
3. Canada's Bill of Human Rights
4. UN Global Human Rights

Have fun :3
 
GeoFee

The tribe that you've been adopted into
Do they recognize inalienable human rights?
Are they negative or positive rights?
Did they always recognize inalienable human rights?
 
Addendum: just found out something historical cool aboot Yosimite: the name we currently use is an anglicization by a white man of a phrase the local tribe gave to the place which meant "the killers" because the area was used as a place for local tribes to dump their abnormally violent tribe members..

History is so cool :3

It must've been confusing in those olde dayz when people of dicfering tribes ran into each other and ran into different names for places...
 
I have a little...@Innana. Just from the knowledge of those things in my memory. I don't have time to do a dissertation at the moment.

For example:

Hate speech laws=positive liberty. Their purpose is to ensure that freedom of speech is not used to incite tyranny or oppression violence against marginalized groups of people. Political correctness can end up being paternalistic when someone(s) decides in order to prevent oppression of marginalized groups others' speech must be scrutinized to the enth degree. Then they feel oppressed. Rational thought has to be applied, and sometimes rational rules, to strike that balance.

Human rights "laws" as laid out by the UN are probably the best example of positive liberty. And they are voluntary. The authoritarian abuse can be evident in both nations choosing to ignore them (a negative liberty exercised by the leader of the ignoring nation) and/ or using force to uphold them (paternalism in the name of positive liberty). It's a quandary. Responsible leaders need to weigh it very carefully - using the facts of the situation. And a choice to both follow the UN guidelines and not use force on others - and nations who make laws to uphold that as best they can - I think, are doing the right thing.

However, even those nations can bend the interpretation of human rights to suit an agenda. For example, I think including disability in the assisted dying law is an abuse of the interpretation of positive liberty for the marginalized and vulnerable to be equal - in favour of the negative liberty of the "ruling class" to do whatever they want.
 
I think a lot of middle class baby boomers don't realize that they - after decades of helping to evolve those human rights, have become the ruling class here - and that comes with it a responsibility to continue to uphold the rights of those still struggling to be equal. Some do get it - especially those who have had to work hard to overcome discrimination and to achieve a certain level of equality themselves (even the president of the U.S. didn't quite overcome it, did he? But I think he still recognized that others are still trying to achieve equality and that his privilege is rare). Those who never had to tend not to see where positive liberty is being eroded in favour of their wishes for individual freedom. They've made it. But they don't see that they've made it, and others are still trying to get there.
 
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Inannawhimsey said:
GeoFee

The tribe that you've been adopted into
Do they recognize inalienable human rights?
Are they negative or positive rights?
Did they always recognize inalienable human rights?
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I am stepping out of all tribal gravity and into the simplicity of our common human being in this particular time and place.

I much prefer the ancient teaching of respect to the modern preoccupation with rights.

I understand that the other met along the way is a particular manifestation of universal human being just as I am.

What I desire for me I offer to others met along our common way.

George
 
The deportment of shawls out of Iowa ... the loss of coverup? Thus the darkness runs in the mystery of unseen loves ...
 
crazyheart said:
okay, who is ready to give their opinion.

Donald or Hilary? in November

I'll take \Justin. :whistle::whistle:
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I gave my prediction long ago, in the days of the primaries. Donald Trump will be the next President of the United States of America. #TeamInstinct
 
GeoFee said:
I am stepping out of all tribal gravity and into the simplicity of our common human being in this particular time and place.

I much prefer the ancient teaching of respect to the modern preoccupation with rights.

I understand that the other met along the way is a particular manifestation of universal human being just as I am.

What I desire for me I offer to others met along our common way.

George
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I was just curious to see if you knew at all :3
 
Kimmio said:
http://www.salon.com/2016/09/03/tru...n-police-state-equal-to-nazi-germany_partner/

No, monk. He'll have a government. It'll be worse that what already exists, much worse.
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I doubt if anything could be worse than what already exists.

Again Kimmio you must make up your mind.

You are ready to hang trump for what he has not yet done and find every excuse in the book for the POTUS' and candidates inhumane and criminal behavior in the past and present

I have stated my opinion numerous times - The POTUS is irrelevant - it is the people that select and control the president that I disagree with. I am tired of this game. I do not support the technocracy that is in place now and I have no faith that this 'establishment' will ever right itself. It needs to be dismantled.

I do not mean to be judgemental when I say that anyone that would condone the action of one proven murderer 'in cheif' over the action of the potential murderer 'in cheif' - is still condoning the murdering. I don't condone it.

There is no justification for war on any people and there is no justification for stealing from any other group of people to pay for those wars. A vote for any POTUS or any Prime Minister of Canada for that matter ... is a vote for murder and theft against innocent people. No one will convince me different.

This system has got to go. I would say it is time to prepare for the worst and govern yourself accordingly - if you want to remain human.

Some people seem to be willing to give up their humanity. I am not one of them.
 
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Things could definitely be worse. You go ahead and believe that Alex Jones is some kind of prophetic truth teller rather than a media spin doctor fear mongering for Trump, and that the police state you fear could not get any worse because you have to pay parking tickets, and keep your dog on a leash in certain places. But governments can be much, much, worse. And those things can get better but the idea of abolishing government because you don't like that - and supporting a person (morally) that wants to deport 11 million people - that is a huge operation requiring a massive policing force. He wants to deport children of illegal immigrants who were born in the U.S. And have never known their parents' countries of origin. "The Law and Order" president, he's said he'll be. He's already made so many inflammatory remarks he has other leaders in the world alarmed. He is sowing discord at home and fueling it abroad already. No, I have not lost my humanity. Trump is showing us exactly who he is. And his minions are united in a very strong misinformation campaign to distract and anger and mislead uneducated voters. This is not a reality TV show. Hillary...and Obama, deserve a fair trial for anything they are accused of that's illegal, not to be tried in the online court of public opinion. Or in Chris Christie's "Guilty or Not Guilty" ... "Lock Her Up!" Convention Kangaroo Court. That was a horrible display of ugly human behaviour. And scary as hell. All planned and staged to elicit that angry mob response.

Where's your sense of mercy and forgiveness or is that not a human trait anymore? How big is your heart? How much of the past can you forgive so the future doesn't turn to chaos? I think that is the question upon all of us right now. Today's children and grandchildren with have nothing but a bleak,dangerous, dystopian future on a scorched earth if Trump is elected. And I feel that very strongly. It's hard to believe that there are people who can't see the red flags.

I feel that if people do not forgive Hillary's scandals, which are not all proven, and some are overblown, we are in for much much worse. We have to open our hearts...there's no choice. (We in general but only the American people can vote). And that total authoritarian control you are so sure Hillary and the global agenda dems are orchestrating will look like a walk in the doggy park next to what Trump would do or the chaos he would fuel.

You say you're not angry but you are following some of the angriest rhetoric and most manipulative misinformation out there.
 
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"This system has got to go"

Sounds like you actually don't care about the ramifications of what that would entail. Check your ego. Be happy you don't live in Nigeria, or North Korea, or Eastern Ukraine...or the Middle East in any war zone at any point in history. Be happy you never lived under Stalin or Moussilini. Be happy you were not a Jew in the 1940s in Germany. Be happy you were not a peasant living under Caligula for that matter. You think you're so oppressed that it can't get any worse? Even I know that oppression exists but abolishing government won't change anything. Changing minds and opening hearts is the only thing that will.Count your lucky stars for living here, now. We have a better system here than our past ancestors had. It can be improved, definitely, but it's a heck of a lot better than just about anywhere at any other time. There's a lot of past to forgive, though, if there's going to be any future to look forward to. Change can happen but we can't let the world fall apart if we're going to achieve that.
 
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Oh, I don't want to hang Trump. He can be quite entertaining. I just wish he would stick with entertainment and not be running for president. He makes a fine entertainer but a terrifying POTUS prospect. For the sake of humanity I hope he doesn't get elected, and goes back to his regularly scheduled TV show.
 
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Kimmio said:
http://www.salon.com/2016/09/03/tru...n-police-state-equal-to-nazi-germany_partner/

No, monk. He'll have a government. It'll be worse that what already exists, much worse.
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There are no bottoms to the pits ... eL goes on and on ... male-female, positive-negative ... that how it goes ...

Like thinking and feeling ... in 90 degree cross point to intuitions and sensationalism ... something people devoted to realism get sucked into at a point ... out lyres by exclusion from conventionalism go different ... divined like a crotch in epistemology ... something to do with the search for the nature of wisdom ... a lost art like love in a Mad Den'd crowd ... mob isle mentality? When mobile ... it goes emotive ...

Sometimes you can see it going if you have respect and appreciation for intellect on the move --- Pogo's outlook on satyrs; bouncy as Jack!
 
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