TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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Kimmio said:
I think potential presidents and VPs should have to have mental health assessments. I don't know why they don't. People need to for lesser jobs. Trump's personality traits make him unsafe to be president, to have that much power. It's been pointed out in dozens of articles how closely his traits resemble malignant narcissism - he's scary. He sounds like a dictator and he's enjoying it!

A mental fitness test would solve it. "sorry you don't qualify to run for president but we wish you all the best in your continuing real estate and TV careers." Adding..." You are really the best at those!"
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He really is the Reality TV King, after all this. I'm okay with that. President, not so much.
 
I can't find Kaine's speech. But headlines note he speaks Spanish fluently.

Incidentally, George Takei also speaks fluent Spanish - he grew up with several Latino friends. He wrote an article comparing Trump's wall and deportation plans to the Japanese internment camps. I hope he speaks at the DNC convention.
 
Kimmio said:
I think potential presidents and VPs should have to have mental health assessments. I don't know why they don't. People need to for lesser jobs. Trump's personality traits make him unsafe to be president, to have that much power. It's been pointed out in dozens of articles how closely his traits resemble malignant narcissism - he's scary. He sounds like a dictator and he's enjoying it!

A mental fitness test would solve it. "sorry you don't qualify to run for president but we wish you all the best in your continuing real estate and TV careers." Adding..." You are really the best at those!"
Click to expand...

Perhaps a mental health assessment with the results made publicly known - but in a democracy shouldn't it be for the people to decide if the mental health assessment makes a person unqualified to be president?
 
revsdd said:
I have a wedding in a few minutes, so I'll get to the shoddy political deal in a little while. But, again - what's your solution? Arresting him? Forbidding him to speak? Killing him?
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None of the above....I was hoping there was some legal way to stop this fiasco. Continue campaigning, but stop the harassment and xenophobia.
 
revsdd said:
Perhaps a mental health assessment with the results made publicly known - but in a democracy shouldn't it be for the people to decide if the mental health assessment makes a person unqualified to be president?
Click to expand...
But he hasn't had a legitimate one. Technically, he can't be diagnosed at arm's length but some qualified psychologists and psychiatrists have gone out on a limb to strongly suggest what a diagnosis might be. Narcissistic Personality Disorder should be a disqualifier. It used to fall under "psychopath". Leaders like Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, likely had it. The thing about Trump is his impulsivity and vindictiveness, and totally egomaniacal, no empathy, no remorse. He makes rash decisions and says dangerous things on the world stage - lies compulsively and then lies on top of his lies and absolutely doesn't care, no apology - to hold as much power as the presidency - I am not sure that the world can afford to let democracy take care of it. Not if there's a risk of ending democracy. Lots of important jobs require that a person be mentally competent for them. He's certainly intelligent, but he's not safe to lead the most powerful country in the Western Hemisphere. Regardless of what people think of his platform - he's the concern. If Reince Prebus, or even Pence, were running for Pres. I wouldn't be as concerned. If Mitt Romney ran again, if Tom Barrack ran... Not nearly as scary personalities even if I don't like many of their policies. Even Cruz has shown he has a conscience!


If he loses - maybe it's a lesson learned for next election.
 
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Kimmio said:
John Oliver's really good. He's smart and bold, too. I'm not a big fan of the guy who took over for Stewart. In fact, his name escapes me. I watched a few clips - probably not a whole show - and they just didn't resonate with me. Jon Stewart retired too early. He should've waited until after Nov 2016 at least.

But...Trump's base doesn't watch them anyway so they preach to the choir....
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Mockery is not about changing the minds of Trump's base. Just like mocking Christianity is not about changing the minds of older Christians who are way too invested to ever examine it. You mock it to make others stop and think. You don't stop the runaway train by pushing against it, but by derailing it.
 
chansen said:
Mockery is not about changing the minds of Trump's base. Just like mocking Christianity is not about changing the minds of older Christians who are way too invested to ever examine it. You mock it to make others stop and think. You don't stop the runaway train by pushing against it, but by derailing it.
Click to expand...

Thing is, when you mock Christianity, the one you're pitting yourself against is the Holy Spirit. While you're trying to make others stop, think, and decide against a relationship with Christ, she's calling people to accept one. And while your stuff is funny, she's simply better at her role than are you are at yours.
 
chansen said:
Mockery is not about changing the minds of Trump's base. Just like mocking Christianity is not about changing the minds of older Christians who are way too invested to ever examine it. You mock it to make others stop and think. You don't stop the runaway train by pushing against it, but by derailing it.
Click to expand...
Like this?
 
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Waterfall said:
None of the above....I was hoping there was some legal way to stop this fiasco. Continue campaigning, but stop the harassment and xenophobia.
Click to expand...

Since he's not singling out individuals in his campaign (well, maybe Megan Kelly at one point) it might be difficult to prove harassment. As for xenophobia - actually, xenophobia (ie, in political terms, isolationism) is a legitimate enough policy position.

Now, about the shoddy political deal that put Hitler in power. (The history of Nazi Germany is a subject that fascinates me and I've done a lot of reading and research on it.)

Franz von Papen was as shoddy a political character as there has ever been. He was also a friend of Paul von Hindenburg - the president of Germany. In 1932, Hindenburg appointed Papen chancellor, even though Papen wasn't the leader of his party, and even though Papen had pledged not to accept the chancellorship, because the leader of his party - Heinrich Bruning - was already chancellor. A couple of days after he made that promise, Hindenburg dismissed Bruning and appointed Papen, who had virtually no support in the Reichstag. Papen then quit his party before being expelled, leaving him as a chancellor without a party. He called an election, hoping that he and his supporters could win a majority. They didn't come close. Instead, the Nazis under Hitler became the largest party, although well short of a majority. Eventually, in late 1932, Papen had to resign as chancellor because he had no support. A new government was formed under an army general named Schleicher, which also had little support in the Reichstag. Meanwhile, Papen started negotiating with Hitler, thinking he could bring Hitler and the Nazis on board with him with the offer of a few Cabinet posts. Hitler refused to be part of a Papen-led government, but said he would agree to be part of a government with Papen and his supporters provided that he - Hitler - was chancellor. Papen insisted that he - Papen - would have to be vice chancellor, that Hitler would not be allowed to meet with Hindenburg without Papen being present, that the majority of the Cabinet would be made up of Papen's supporters, and that Papen would have to co-sign any communications from the Cabinet to Hindenburg. Surprisingly, Hitler agreed. The government took office on January 30, 1933, with the Nazis holding only 3 Cabinet posts - Hitler as Chancellor, Hermann Goering as Interior Minister and Joseph Goebbels as Propaganda Minister. Papen and his supporters thought they had Hitler in a trap. He was chancellor of a government he couldn't control and his followers had none of the seemingly important ministries. Papen's supporters served as Foreign Minister, Finance Minister, Defence Minister and Justice Minister, for example. They had overlooked the fact that as chancellor, Hitler had access to all government information, as Interior Minister Goering controlled the police and as Propaganda Minister Goebbels controlled the media and the message. The new government still didn't have a majority. At the first Cabinet meeting Hitler suggested that they negotiate with the Centre Party, whose numbers would give them a majority. He also announced that if the negotiations failed, a new election would be necessary. Papen protested, but Hitler promised - he PROMISED - that no matter what, the composition of the government wouldn't change. He then appointed Goering to conduct the negotiations. Goering had some talks and then came back to the Cabinet and announced - unsurprisingly - that no deal was possible. Hitler said an election would be necessary. He repeated his PROMISE that nothing would change. So Papen co-signed the document asking the president for a new election. Here's where it gets really interesting.

Now that Goering was in charge of the police, he ordered them not to interfere with the Nazi thugs known as the brownshirts. The brownshirts spent the whole campaign intimidating the opposition parties, breaking up their rallies, fighting them in the streets, threatening their supporters - while the police looked on and did nothing. Thanks to Goebbels, the opposition were given almost no opportunity to put forth their ideas. And yet - when the election was held - the Nazis still didn't win a majority. The people refused to give it to them. The government (with Papen's supporters included) had a small majority, but not enough to do what Hitler wanted to do. So ...

Hitler came up with the idea of what's now known as the Enabling Act. It was a bill that gave the Cabinet the power to legislate without having to seek the approval of the Reichstag. But it required a two thirds vote of the Reichstag to pass because it was a change to the Constitution. Hitler counted the numbers and realized that if only the Communists didn't vote, there would be a two-thirds majority. So, in control of the police, the Nazis had the Communist members of the Reichstag thrown in jail. Papen's supporters were nervous about the Enabling Act, but - again - Hitler PROMISED that nothing would change. It was for emergencies only when fast action was needed, and would probably be rarely used he told them. Papen's supporters agreed to support the bill. So did the Centre Party, who weren't part of the coalition but who were now scared to death that they'd be arrested if they didn't vote in favour. Only the Social Democratic Party had the guts to stand up in the Reichstag - which was surrounded now by brownshirts demanded passage of the bill or else - and announce that they would vote "NO." They did, but with the Communists under arrest, the Centre Party voting for the bill because they were terrified, and Papen's supporters clinging to the idea that they were in control of the situation, the Enabling Act passed. Papen's supporters hadn't noticed apparently that the text of the Enabling Act didn't say that the Cabinet had to approve legislation; it said that the Chancellor (Hitler) would draw up legislation and present it to the Cabinet - as a fait accompli. Once presented to the Cabinet, it became law; no vote taken. Almost immediately Hitler began outlawing political parties and trade unions, interfering with the independence of the churches and he even abolished the states. Germany had been a federal republic; Hitler now made it a unitary state. He stopped respecting Papen's right to be present when he met with Hindenburg. Actually, he basically ignored Hindenburg as well, because he no longer needed him. He had all power. The only group in the country that could oppose him was the Army. They weren't enthusiastic about Hitler or the Nazis, and were concerned that the SA - the Nazis' own sort-of private army - was going to be made superior to them. The Army threatened to overthrown the government unless something were done, and made a deal with Hitler that Hitler would purge the SA and take away its military functions. In exchange, the Army agreed to respect Hitler's authority as chancellor and to support him as Hindenburg's successor as president when Hindenburg died - by this time he was old and sick. This time, Hitler kept his word and purged the SA, and the Army from then on kept its word and did Hitler's bidding - right up to Hitler's death.

So Hitler never actually won a free election - at least not in the sense of ever winning a majority. He came to power because of shoddy behind the scenes deals.

Weimar Germany used a system of proportional representation. It's why I'm not a big fan of proportional representation. Too many behind the scenes deals are necessary after elections, and the people really have no idea what's being promised to whom.
 
chansen said:
Mockery is not about changing the minds of Trump's base. Just like mocking Christianity is not about changing the minds of older Christians who are way too invested to ever examine it. You mock it to make others stop and think. You don't stop the runaway train by pushing against it, but by derailing it.
Click to expand...
There's a place for comedy and satire - Colbert who I think is one of the best at it says it makes people laugh and realize they're not alone in their views - but it will not derail Trump. Colbert himself says he doesn't do it thinking it's going to change anything. His first goal is to make people laugh. Trump's campaign itself has come across as a satire of a political campaign. He's got a way of riling up the mob mentality that's so strong even Republicans who had a conscience a couple of months ago now say they support him. He's got his supporters in a frenzied trance.
 
revsdd said:
Since he's not singling out individuals in his campaign (well, maybe Megan Kelly at one point) it might be difficult to prove harassment. As for xenophobia - actually, xenophobia (ie, in political terms, isolationism) is a legitimate enough policy position.

Now, about the shoddy political deal that put Hitler in power. (The history of Nazi Germany is a subject that fascinates me and I've done a lot of reading and research on it.)

Franz von Papen was as shoddy a political character as there has ever been. He was also a friend of Paul von Hindenburg - the president of Germany. In 1932, Hindenburg appointed Papen chancellor, even though Papen wasn't the leader of his party, and even though Papen had pledged not to accept the chancellorship, because the leader of his party - Heinrich Bruning - was already chancellor. A couple of days after he made that promise, Hindenburg dismissed Bruning and appointed Papen, who had virtually no support in the Reichstag. Papen then quit his party before being expelled, leaving him as a chancellor without a party. He called an election, hoping that he and his supporters could win a majority. They didn't come close. Instead, the Nazis under Hitler became the largest party, although well short of a majority. Eventually, in late 1932, Papen had to resign as chancellor because he had no support. A new government was formed under an army general named Schleicher, which also had little support in the Reichstag. Meanwhile, Papen started negotiating with Hitler, thinking he could bring Hitler and the Nazis on board with him with the offer of a few Cabinet posts. Hitler refused to be part of a Papen-led government, but said he would agree to be part of a government with Papen and his supporters provided that he - Hitler - was chancellor. Papen insisted that he - Papen - would have to be vice chancellor, that Hitler would not be allowed to meet with Hindenburg without Papen being present, that the majority of the Cabinet would be made up of Papen's supporters, and that Papen would have to co-sign any communications from the Cabinet to Hindenburg. Surprisingly, Hitler agreed. The government took office on January 30, 1933, with the Nazis holding only 3 Cabinet posts - Hitler as Chancellor, Hermann Goering as Interior Minister and Joseph Goebbels as Propaganda Minister. Papen and his supporters thought they had Hitler in a trap. He was chancellor of a government he couldn't control and his followers had none of the seemingly important ministries. Papen's supporters served as Foreign Minister, Finance Minister, Defence Minister and Justice Minister, for example. They had overlooked the fact that as chancellor, Hitler had access to all government information, as Interior Minister Goering controlled the police and as Propaganda Minister Goebbels controlled the media and the message. The new government still didn't have a majority. At the first Cabinet meeting Hitler suggested that they negotiate with the Centre Party, whose numbers would give them a majority. He also announced that if the negotiations failed, a new election would be necessary. Papen protested, but Hitler promised - he PROMISED - that no matter what, the composition of the government wouldn't change. He then appointed Goering to conduct the negotiations. Goering had some talks and then came back to the Cabinet and announced - unsurprisingly - that no deal was possible. Hitler said an election would be necessary. He repeated his PROMISE that nothing would change. So Papen co-signed the document asking the president for a new election. Here's where it gets really interesting.

Now that Goering was in charge of the police, he ordered them not to interfere with the Nazi thugs known as the brownshirts. The brownshirts spent the whole campaign intimidating the opposition parties, breaking up their rallies, fighting them in the streets, threatening their supporters - while the police looked on and did nothing. Thanks to Goebbels, the opposition were given almost no opportunity to put forth their ideas. And yet - when the election was held - the Nazis still didn't win a majority. The people refused to give it to them. The government (with Papen's supporters included) had a small majority, but not enough to do what Hitler wanted to do. So ...

Hitler came up with the idea of what's now known as the Enabling Act. It was a bill that gave the Cabinet the power to legislate without having to seek the approval of the Reichstag. But it required a two thirds vote of the Reichstag to pass because it was a change to the Constitution. Hitler counted the numbers and realized that if only the Communists didn't vote, there would be a two-thirds majority. So, in control of the police, the Nazis had the Communist members of the Reichstag thrown in jail. Papen's supporters were nervous about the Enabling Act, but - again - Hitler PROMISED that nothing would change. It was for emergencies only when fast action was needed, and would probably be rarely used he told them. Papen's supporters agreed to support the bill. So did the Centre Party, who weren't part of the coalition but who were now scared to death that they'd be arrested if they didn't vote in favour. Only the Social Democratic Party had the guts to stand up in the Reichstag - which was surrounded now by brownshirts demanded passage of the bill or else - and announce that they would vote "NO." They did, but with the Communists under arrest, the Centre Party voting for the bill because they were terrified, and Papen's supporters clinging to the idea that they were in control of the situation, the Enabling Act passed. Papen's supporters hadn't noticed apparently that the text of the Enabling Act didn't say that the Cabinet had to approve legislation; it said that the Chancellor (Hitler) would draw up legislation and present it to the Cabinet - as a fait accompli. Once presented to the Cabinet, it became law; no vote taken. Almost immediately Hitler began outlawing political parties and trade unions, interfering with the independence of the churches and he even abolished the states. Germany had been a federal republic; Hitler now made it a unitary state. He stopped respecting Papen's right to be present when he met with Hindenburg. Actually, he basically ignored Hindenburg as well, because he no longer needed him. He had all power. The only group in the country that could oppose him was the Army. They weren't enthusiastic about Hitler or the Nazis, and were concerned that the SA - the Nazis' own sort-of private army - was going to be made superior to them. The Army threatened to overthrown the government unless something were done, and made a deal with Hitler that Hitler would purge the SA and take away its military functions. In exchange, the Army agreed to respect Hitler's authority as chancellor and to support him as Hindenburg's successor as president when Hindenburg died - by this time he was old and sick. This time, Hitler kept his word and purged the SA, and the Army from then on kept its word and did Hitler's bidding - right up to Hitler's death.

So Hitler never actually won a free election - at least not in the sense of ever winning a majority. He came to power because of shoddy behind the scenes deals.

Weimar Germany used a system of proportional representation. It's why I'm not a big fan of proportional representation. Too many behind the scenes deals are necessary after elections, and the people really have no idea what's being promised to whom.
Click to expand...

I knew that there had been political and electoral shenanigans involved, but not the full story. Thanks for sharing this, @revsdd .
 
revsdd said:
Since he's not singling out individuals in his campaign (well, maybe Megan Kelly at one point) it might be difficult to prove harassment. As for xenophobia - actually, xenophobia (ie, in political terms, isolationism) is a legitimate enough policy position.

Now, about the shoddy political deal that put Hitler in power. (The history of Nazi Germany is a subject that fascinates me and I've done a lot of reading and research on it.)

Franz von Papen was as shoddy a political character as there has ever been. He was also a friend of Paul von Hindenburg - the president of Germany. In 1932, Hindenburg appointed Papen chancellor, even though Papen wasn't the leader of his party, and even though Papen had pledged not to accept the chancellorship, because the leader of his party - Heinrich Bruning - was already chancellor. A couple of days after he made that promise, Hindenburg dismissed Bruning and appointed Papen, who had virtually no support in the Reichstag. Papen then quit his party before being expelled, leaving him as a chancellor without a party. He called an election, hoping that he and his supporters could win a majority. They didn't come close. Instead, the Nazis under Hitler became the largest party, although well short of a majority. Eventually, in late 1932, Papen had to resign as chancellor because he had no support. A new government was formed under an army general named Schleicher, which also had little support in the Reichstag. Meanwhile, Papen started negotiating with Hitler, thinking he could bring Hitler and the Nazis on board with him with the offer of a few Cabinet posts. Hitler refused to be part of a Papen-led government, but said he would agree to be part of a government with Papen and his supporters provided that he - Hitler - was chancellor. Papen insisted that he - Papen - would have to be vice chancellor, that Hitler would not be allowed to meet with Hindenburg without Papen being present, that the majority of the Cabinet would be made up of Papen's supporters, and that Papen would have to co-sign any communications from the Cabinet to Hindenburg. Surprisingly, Hitler agreed. The government took office on January 30, 1933, with the Nazis holding only 3 Cabinet posts - Hitler as Chancellor, Hermann Goering as Interior Minister and Joseph Goebbels as Propaganda Minister. Papen and his supporters thought they had Hitler in a trap. He was chancellor of a government he couldn't control and his followers had none of the seemingly important ministries. Papen's supporters served as Foreign Minister, Finance Minister, Defence Minister and Justice Minister, for example. They had overlooked the fact that as chancellor, Hitler had access to all government information, as Interior Minister Goering controlled the police and as Propaganda Minister Goebbels controlled the media and the message. The new government still didn't have a majority. At the first Cabinet meeting Hitler suggested that they negotiate with the Centre Party, whose numbers would give them a majority. He also announced that if the negotiations failed, a new election would be necessary. Papen protested, but Hitler promised - he PROMISED - that no matter what, the composition of the government wouldn't change. He then appointed Goering to conduct the negotiations. Goering had some talks and then came back to the Cabinet and announced - unsurprisingly - that no deal was possible. Hitler said an election would be necessary. He repeated his PROMISE that nothing would change. So Papen co-signed the document asking the president for a new election. Here's where it gets really interesting.

Now that Goering was in charge of the police, he ordered them not to interfere with the Nazi thugs known as the brownshirts. The brownshirts spent the whole campaign intimidating the opposition parties, breaking up their rallies, fighting them in the streets, threatening their supporters - while the police looked on and did nothing. Thanks to Goebbels, the opposition were given almost no opportunity to put forth their ideas. And yet - when the election was held - the Nazis still didn't win a majority. The people refused to give it to them. The government (with Papen's supporters included) had a small majority, but not enough to do what Hitler wanted to do. So ...

Hitler came up with the idea of what's now known as the Enabling Act. It was a bill that gave the Cabinet the power to legislate without having to seek the approval of the Reichstag. But it required a two thirds vote of the Reichstag to pass because it was a change to the Constitution. Hitler counted the numbers and realized that if only the Communists didn't vote, there would be a two-thirds majority. So, in control of the police, the Nazis had the Communist members of the Reichstag thrown in jail. Papen's supporters were nervous about the Enabling Act, but - again - Hitler PROMISED that nothing would change. It was for emergencies only when fast action was needed, and would probably be rarely used he told them. Papen's supporters agreed to support the bill. So did the Centre Party, who weren't part of the coalition but who were now scared to death that they'd be arrested if they didn't vote in favour. Only the Social Democratic Party had the guts to stand up in the Reichstag - which was surrounded now by brownshirts demanded passage of the bill or else - and announce that they would vote "NO." They did, but with the Communists under arrest, the Centre Party voting for the bill because they were terrified, and Papen's supporters clinging to the idea that they were in control of the situation, the Enabling Act passed. Papen's supporters hadn't noticed apparently that the text of the Enabling Act didn't say that the Cabinet had to approve legislation; it said that the Chancellor (Hitler) would draw up legislation and present it to the Cabinet - as a fait accompli. Once presented to the Cabinet, it became law; no vote taken. Almost immediately Hitler began outlawing political parties and trade unions, interfering with the independence of the churches and he even abolished the states. Germany had been a federal republic; Hitler now made it a unitary state. He stopped respecting Papen's right to be present when he met with Hindenburg. Actually, he basically ignored Hindenburg as well, because he no longer needed him. He had all power. The only group in the country that could oppose him was the Army. They weren't enthusiastic about Hitler or the Nazis, and were concerned that the SA - the Nazis' own sort-of private army - was going to be made superior to them. The Army threatened to overthrown the government unless something were done, and made a deal with Hitler that Hitler would purge the SA and take away its military functions. In exchange, the Army agreed to respect Hitler's authority as chancellor and to support him as Hindenburg's successor as president when Hindenburg died - by this time he was old and sick. This time, Hitler kept his word and purged the SA, and the Army from then on kept its word and did Hitler's bidding - right up to Hitler's death.

So Hitler never actually won a free election - at least not in the sense of ever winning a majority. He came to power because of shoddy behind the scenes deals.

Weimar Germany used a system of proportional representation. It's why I'm not a big fan of proportional representation. Too many behind the scenes deals are necessary after elections, and the people really have no idea what's being promised to whom.
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Okay, yes I remember reading about Gleischultung, thank you for the reminder. Hope the Donald doesn't read your post.:cry:
 
The Donald has stated he doesn't think much of proper polity ... proper extremes?


Then why does he act so non moderate ... because people like it? Good for the competition drivel ...
 
Pr. Jae said:
Thing is, when you mock Christianity, the one you're pitting yourself against is the Holy Spirit. While you're trying to make others stop, think, and decide against a relationship with Christ, she's calling people to accept one. And while your stuff is funny, she's simply better at her role than are you are at yours.
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I'm not great at what I do here, but if there is a Holy Spirit, it's pretty clear she sucks even worse than I do. All you can do is jump up and down and tell people about your version of the Holy Spirit, but you have nothing to demonstrate. Worse, you're a professional jerk online, and if the Holy Spirit is moving you at all, she's moving you in ways that repel others.

The willingness of evangelical elements of Christianity to hitch their wagons to a bigoted man like Donald Trump could damage them as much as Trump damages the Republican party. If Trump wins, it could give these people unprecedented power in exchange for their support of a man who clearly has far more interest in winning the contest than he has in governing. If Trump loses badly, and evangelical Christianity gets called out effectively for its hypocrisy, that could swing faith in the US even more violently away from Christianity than it is currently drifting now.

This could be an "all or nothing" moment in American politics and faith.
 
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