TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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In Trump and Clinton, we're watching the collapse of American society. And any alternative is likely to be more nazi than helpful.
And it's not just American society. There are collapsing social structures all over the world. We are deep into the world of the anti-Christ. And the only religious leader I have read of who addresses this is the pope.
 
Maybe what we are experiencing is the collapse of this humanmade structure that was designed by Masters to have slaves...tax farms...and when their structure goes they will die off...
Good thing that when things collapse it isnt like in the movies
But people band togèther helping each other
This experiment of being cognzant of more than 150 people is certainly interestin
 
@Inannawhimsey Think and act for the greater good, I suppose - in some instances individualism is better than collectivism, etc. and vice versa, or at least not harmful - but finding the right balance between freedom and responsibility is where I'm at I guess. I'm not always right about the balance - but in those two instances, I think I am. I've certainly given it a lot of thought.

On a small scale - nothing wrong with good manners in someone else's house, too. That doesn't mean you can't like eat like a cave-person, naked, in your own house. :) but then again, expecting guests to have perfect manners is over the top - there has to be flexibility. I was brought up as Miss Manners in one house, and pizza in front of the TV, grab your own, take the last piece don't ask, who cares about manners, in another... The second one was more fun but the first was so instilled in me it felt super rude.

Back to Trump... He has some 'splainin to do in the past few days. His peers are all calling him out and backing him at the same time. Really hard to predict what's going to happen.
 
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It's hard to argue against the idea that Trump is a Democrat plant. Still, it's not a feather in the cap of Republicans that so many of them are so quick to support a guy who makes a point of saying the most hateful things he can think of.
I wish he was. That looks very unlikely now. He's in it to win and doesn't care about the Dems or GOP. He'd use either one, whoever would help him more (he's voted Dem in the past he's not fully partisan just fully self interested) the same way as a means for HIM to win - and the GOP has provided fertile ground for him to use them because he's just them on steroids - they see it but can't seem to do anything about their creation.

Bernie kind of did the same, he used the Dems as his springboard...but with a more altruistic purpose, I think.
 
Sometimes it seems like Trump is playing everyone - like a satire - just to get people to realize how bad things are - and he actually doesn't want to win but wants to know he could win, and wants people to know he could win, so they don't elect him! So they recognize it and do the right thing - or what they get is their own fault. Somewhere in there he knows he's playing the villain, but can't help it, but doesn't really want to play the villain. Something like that. A real Frankenstein. Or just a fake campaign he never thought would be real himself. He must be getting pretty close to exhausted. That sounds weird but the whole thing has been weird and still is. He does such over the top things it's like on some level he's waiting for them to kick him out, just keeps baiting the GOP but they don't stand up to him.
 
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Remember Charlie Sheen's year long episode? somewhere in there he was crying for help off of the ride he was on - he needed professional help - but due to the nature of his state was not able to admit it and his sycophants (fans) kept enabling him by egging him on and they just, selfishly, thought he was the greatest fun, and the media played it up. But it was actually sad to watch. He eventually crashed. This is starting to remind me of that, even the media attention. With higher stakes for everybody.
 
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And my original queston remains. Was Jesus conservative or liberal?
Jesus himself probably wouldn't have understood your question. In the Gospels, Jesus is a radical reformer of the Judaism of his day, but sees himself as being less a reformer than one who calls Israel back to what you might call the "spirit" of Judaism. Little is said about his relationship to the state. He apparently believed in paying the taxes Rome demanded. He was opposed to violent revolution. He also supported the poor and others who were on the outside of both state and religion. Those things allow people to identify him as either conservative or liberal. "Conservative" in that he is largely obedient to the state and its demands; "liberal" in that he believes in compassion for those who are - to use a modern phrase - marginalized. In theory, many modern "conservative" Christians put those together by arguing, for example, that the state isn't responsible for the poor, but that we as individuals have a moral responsible to help the poor through charity, while many modern "liberal Christians" advocate for government involvement in helping the poor. Each claim Jesus as their inspiration and example. Again, Jesus wouldn't have understood the debate. The Roman Empire didn't have ideology as we have ideology. It had those who ruled and those who were ruled by them. (One can say that not much has changed - but I"m talking theory here, not practice.) The idea that the state would be responsible for running welfare programs, etc. wouldn't have even occurred to him. So it's a bit of a fool's game to argue that Jesus would or wouldn't have supported the welfare state. It just wasn't an idea that had even been conceived. And as far as the state taking military action is concerned - again, we have no real way of determining whether or in what circumstances Jesus would have approved. Jesus asked for respect for Roman soldiers. "If a soldier asks you to walk one mile with him, walk two." My guess (and it's only that) is that Jesus would have approved of the basic principle of chaplaincy - the idea that soldiers were as worthy of being shown the love of God and cared for in times of crisis as anyone else. I do believe that Jesus would have believed that one should serve God before either Empire or religion. Using modern terms, I think he would have rejected either patriotism or fundamentalism - since one can easily put Empire before God and the other puts religion before God.

After all that, in terms of ideology, my basic answer to graeme's question is that it's a pointless one. Jesus was neither liberal nor conservative as we understand the terms, because the terms didn't exist and wouldn't have been conceived of in the Roman Empire. It's trying to take the Jesus of the 1st century and fit him into the ideology of the 21st century. It's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It can't be answered. We have to discern what action Jesus is calling us to and then we have to act. In some way, following the example of Jesus, our actions should be motivated by love and by a desire for justice and compassion. I'm not entirely sure that can be easily placed in a particular spot on the modern ideological spectrum, since I know people on both the "conservative" and "liberal" ends of that spectrum who would fit into that description.

Briefly, moving on to Paul - who is the one who basically put all this into a somewhat more practical framework - he seems to have argued for loyalty to and respect for the state and its leaders, but always in the context that loyalty to God was foremost. "Our citizenship is in heaven." He saw the state as having a purpose (basically, law and order) but I think loyalty to God would have led him to believe that our loyalty to and respect for the state should not get in the way of our personal responsibility to offer love, and to seek justice and compassion. Like Jesus, I don't know that he would have interpreted love, justice (as faith would define the term) or compassion as the responsibility of the state. Paul certainly exercised his rights of citizenship as a Roman.

The relationship of the Christian to the state is a difficult one. I would fall on the side of saying that while neither Jesus nor Paul saw the state as the primary actor in seeking peace, justice or compassion (that was the responsibility of individuals motivated by God) it's equally true that neither lived in a society where people had the right to speak out, to vote, etc. So how they would have put that into practice in the context of a modern, "democratic" state is uncertain. Would they have advocated for us to try to influence the state and make the state the provider of peace, justice and compassion, or would they have said "the state's the state, and our faith is our faith," and seen the two as separate? Hard to say. I think they would have expected people of faith to be active in promoting God's reign on earth through the democratic process - but that's a guess. I just don't think you can take 1st century figures, transplant them into the 21st century and say with certainty - "here's what their political or ideological allegiance would have been."

And in terms of the US election my guess is that Jesus would not have been all that impressed with the current political process anyway, regardless of what candidate or ideology we're talking about - motivated as it seems to be most often by the desire for power for its own sake and/or its trappings rather than any desire to truly reform society in a way he saw as consistent with God's will.
 
Jesus himself probably wouldn't have understood your question. In the Gospels, Jesus is a radical reformer of the Judaism of his day, but sees himself as being less a reformer than one who calls Israel back to what you might call the "spirit" of Judaism. Little is said about his relationship to the state. He apparently believed in paying the taxes Rome demanded. He was opposed to violent revolution. He also supported the poor and others who were on the outside of both state and religion. Those things allow people to identify him as either conservative or liberal. "Conservative" in that he is largely obedient to the state and its demands; "liberal" in that he believes in compassion for those who are - to use a modern phrase - marginalized. In theory, many modern "conservative" Christians put those together by arguing, for example, that the state isn't responsible for the poor, but that we as individuals have a moral responsible to help the poor through charity, while many modern "liberal Christians" advocate for government involvement in helping the poor. Each claim Jesus as their inspiration and example. Again, Jesus wouldn't have understood the debate. The Roman Empire didn't have ideology as we have ideology. It had those who ruled and those who were ruled by them. (One can say that not much has changed - but I"m talking theory here, not practice.) The idea that the state would be responsible for running welfare programs, etc. wouldn't have even occurred to him. So it's a bit of a fool's game to argue that Jesus would or wouldn't have supported the welfare state. It just wasn't an idea that had even been conceived. And as far as the state taking military action is concerned - again, we have no real way of determining whether or in what circumstances Jesus would have approved. Jesus asked for respect for Roman soldiers. "If a soldier asks you to walk one mile with him, walk two." My guess (and it's only that) is that Jesus would have approved of the basic principle of chaplaincy - the idea that soldiers were as worthy of being shown the love of God and cared for in times of crisis as anyone else. I do believe that Jesus would have believed that one should serve God before either Empire or religion. Using modern terms, I think he would have rejected either patriotism or fundamentalism - since one can easily put Empire before God and the other puts religion before God.

After all that, in terms of ideology, my basic answer to graeme's question is that it's a pointless one. Jesus was neither liberal nor conservative as we understand the terms, because the terms didn't exist and wouldn't have been conceived of in the Roman Empire. It's trying to take the Jesus of the 1st century and fit him into the ideology of the 21st century. It's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It can't be answered. We have to discern what action Jesus is calling us to and then we have to act. In some way, following the example of Jesus, our actions should be motivated by love and by a desire for justice and compassion. I'm not entirely sure that can be easily placed in a particular spot on the modern ideological spectrum, since I know people on both the "conservative" and "liberal" ends of that spectrum who would fit into that description.

Briefly, moving on to Paul - who is the one who basically put all this into a somewhat more practical framework - he seems to have argued for loyalty to and respect for the state and its leaders, but always in the context that loyalty to God was foremost. "Our citizenship is in heaven." He saw the state as having a purpose (basically, law and order) but I think loyalty to God would have led him to believe that our loyalty to and respect for the state should not get in the way of our personal responsibility to offer love, and to seek justice and compassion. Like Jesus, I don't know that he would have interpreted love, justice (as faith would define the term) or compassion as the responsibility of the state. Paul certainly exercised his rights of citizenship as a Roman.

The relationship of the Christian to the state is a difficult one. I would fall on the side of saying that while neither Jesus nor Paul saw the state as the primary actor in seeking peace, justice or compassion (that was the responsibility of individuals motivated by God) it's equally true that neither lived in a society where people had the right to speak out, to vote, etc. So how they would have put that into practice in the context of a modern, "democratic" state is uncertain. Would they have advocated for us to try to influence the state and make the state the provider of peace, justice and compassion, or would they have said "the state's the state, and our faith is our faith," and seen the two as separate? Hard to say. I think they would have expected people of faith to be active in promoting God's reign on earth through the democratic process - but that's a guess. I just don't think you can take 1st century figures, transplant them into the 21st century and say with certainty - "here's what their political or ideological allegiance would have been."

And in terms of the US election my guess is that Jesus would not have been all that impressed with the current political process anyway, regardless of what candidate or ideology we're talking about - motivated as it seems to be most often by the desire for power for its own sake and/or its trappings rather than any desire to truly reform society in a way he saw as consistent with God's will.

Is there illuminator science all over the place that we need to collect instead of denying?

Does stoic religion fix us into a stunned mode? That's enough to stop a bullock! Why BS rests in the temple ...
 
revsdd, not sure I agree with your position that Jesus accepted the taxation system of the Romans. His answer "render unto Caesar the things due to Caesar" is more ambiguous than collusion. If his position is really that the Kin dom of Godde is the legitimate governance system for humanity, not the "Powers and Principalities", then there is nothing due to Caesar.
 
revsdd, not sure I agree with your position that Jesus accepted the taxation system of the Romans. His answer "render unto Caesar the things due to Caesar" is more ambiguous than collusion. If his position is really that the Kin dom of Godde is the legitimate governance system for humanity, not the "Powers and Principalities", then there is nothing due to Caesar.

See, that's not how I read it. I see no evidence that Jesus saw the kingdom of God as a governance system for nations. He presented a set of values and teaching as a way of life for individuals and communities, to be sure, but I don't see a governance system and I certainly don't see him trying to overthrow any governments. He did not have a problem with paying taxes to Rome because it was Rome that made the money in the first place. It was Rome's money. He did have a problem with worshipping emperors because they did not merit worship; they were just sinful human beings like us. Only God merits worship and emperors should be bowing down before God, just like the rest of us. Perhaps a different governance system would flow out of individuals and communities following Jesus' way, but that does not appear to have been a goal of Jesus himself.
 
Oh, I think he definitely had "politics" in mind, and I think he showed it in plenty of ways. The entry into Jerusalem on the Monday of Holy Week, the overturning of the tables in the Temple. He was not a fan of the status quo, I think.
 
Like Sunday Morning coming down into Je ruse a lem ... thus the mimicking of heart ... and really it is sneaky thinking without a care of what it does pragmatically ... not a care about the wholly thing ...
 
Jesus was a Jew
And the Jews learned (among other things) that they didnt need a country to be a People
They also learned to render unto Caesar what was Caesarz -- KBH -- when living in someone else's country. So they were a zeperate people but not so seperate that the FBI would storm their compound and incarcerate them...taxes were rent to stay in that country...

Ok. Me here: i just realized something: Lawrence of Arabia was BOTH pro arab and a Zionist. Hows that for cool?
 
the overturning of the tables in the Temple. He was not a fan of the status quo, I think.

Right, but he saw the change in religious, not political, terms - a spiritual revival among the Jews leading to a return to true holiness. The overturning of the tables had nothing to do with Romans or government; it was protesting the practice of commerce in a holy place. It was very much about the corruption of religion. I highly doubt he had any intention of overthrowing the Empire; that would come with the coming of God's Kingdom. See, I don't think Jesus meant the coming of the Kingdom metaphorically. He sincerely believed in it and thought it would come shortly after the end of his ministry/life. So did his followers and early Christians like Paul. There was no expectation of the message resonating with people in 2000 years because by then we would be living in the kingdom.
 
Right, but he saw the change in religious, not political, terms - a spiritual revival among the Jews leading to a return to true holiness. The overturning of the tables had nothing to do with Romans or government; it was protesting the practice of commerce in a holy place. It was very much about the corruption of religion. I highly doubt he had any intention of overthrowing the Empire; that would come with the coming of God's Kingdom. See, I don't think Jesus meant the coming of the Kingdom metaphorically. He sincerely believed in it and thought it would come shortly after the end of his ministry/life. So did his followers and early Christians like Paul. There was no expectation of the message resonating with people in 2000 years because by then we would be living in the kingdom.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is at hand. I believe that he came to inaugurate the Kingdom, the sphere in which God reigns. Moreover, I believe that the Kingdom has come - it is here now, but not yet in its fullness.
 
So, the Kingdom is still in preseason? Everyone always complains that preseason is too long.
 
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