(Our family has always owned cats - or should I say, cats have always owned my family. Over the years we've had Keekee, Whisper, Joey, Moe, and Kara. Our present owner is named Star the Wondercat. Actually, when I was a kid I didn't care much for the cats. Now that I'm older I love them as companion animals.)
The Rev. Vosper Again
- Thread starter crazyheart
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(Our family has always owned cats - or should I say, cats have always owned my family. Over the years we've had Keekee, Whisper, Joey, Moe, and Kara. Our present owner is named Star the Wondercat. Actually, when I was a kid I didn't care much for the cats. Now that I'm older I love them as companion animals.)
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
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Great names for cats!
I have had Bootie, Sparky, Boogie, Buttercup and others. None right now and I kinda miss having cats around.
Disinterest is an affectation with cats ... they just look like they are disinterested due to programming ... when secretly they wonder ... thus allowing the word: incarnate ... "as they appear as isn't" ... or aren't if you pluralize ... if they gather they are a hump to get over! Furballize cautiously because you never know how god's pelt and it could be bifurcated for diversity ... and thus they split off to do their own individualization ... at least until the extent collapses to a point .. then it pins away as a mule, called Midnight where sound carries in the silence! You can hear humps and grindings .. out there! Something again ... to get over!
Thus the tin rouffe syndrome ...
Thus the tin rouffe syndrome ...
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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I've always had a cat or five. There's currently Atwood and Eliot. I've had Longfellow, Byron, Bronte, Dickens, Kingsley, Pippin, Sam, Oscar...
chansen
Had a point all along
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What happens to West Hill if Rev. Vosper is DSL'ed? I'm assuming the people would follow her anywhere. In that case, I'm sure the building would remain in the hands of the UCCan, and the congregation would either have to buy it or find a new home.
What if she decides to hang it up? What if the people decide to stay in the UCCan? Their search for a new minister would result in someone close to Gretta, wouldn't it? They would not venture far from what they believe, or don't believe. They are not going to accept a typical UCCan minister. At that point, wouldn't Toronto Conference or somebody have to step in? And do what?
What if she decides to hang it up? What if the people decide to stay in the UCCan? Their search for a new minister would result in someone close to Gretta, wouldn't it? They would not venture far from what they believe, or don't believe. They are not going to accept a typical UCCan minister. At that point, wouldn't Toronto Conference or somebody have to step in? And do what?
Lastpointe
Well-Known Member
There is an established procedure for putting out a call for a new Minister. They would do that. Would some members leave to follow her? Likely. It often happens. Just like many members left the congregation over her beliefs
This is not the first church that has ministerial issues.
This is not the first church that has ministerial issues.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
As you suggest, I think many of those now at West Hill would choose to leave the United Church. Yes, the building belongs to the United Church.
As for those left, they would likely call someone that they were sympathetic to. After the likely exodus, it's hard to say what the theological leaning of those remaining would be, or what their ability to afford a full time minister would be. But if they were to call someone similar in outlook to Gretta, it wouldn't necessarily be a problem. The real problem with Gretta for many people hasn't been her theology per se but has rather been the perception that she's deliberately using her position and the media to essentially leave the impression that she represents the United Church (like the "more than 50% of clergy agree with me" comments, which - survey aside - nobody that I've ever spoken to in the United Church from any theological perspective did anything other than roll their eyes about) and the fact that she has been deliberately (in my opinion) confrontational with the denomination, almost seeming to be trying to provoke this response. I think that a new minister (even one who agreed with Gretta) would likely be left alone as long as s/he seemed primarily concerned with West Hill and was a team player.
I might add that being a team player doesn't necessarily mean toeing the line or agreeing with the denomination on everything, but it does mean handling your disagreements appropriately.
chansen
Had a point all along
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But the impending review is not about her media attention. It's supposed to be about her theology. So, in a sense, are they using her theology against her so they don't have to deal with the media attention she brings?
And if you want to refute her 50% claim, then do a more complete job of what Richard did with his survey. I keep harping on this point, because it's true: If you think someone is wrong, don't try to silence them - refute them. You guys struggle with this one.
And if you want to refute her 50% claim, then do a more complete job of what Richard did with his survey. I keep harping on this point, because it's true: If you think someone is wrong, don't try to silence them - refute them. You guys struggle with this one.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
I'm just saying that she has, in my opinion, been trying to provoke a confrontation. And the media and theology go together here. It's one thing to have a "rogue" minister; it's another when the rogue minister and her theology start to be the face of the United Church. It's kind of like a backbencher voting against their party. They can do it, but if they start to make a fuss about it and creating confusion about where their party stands on an issue, the consequences will be more severe.
chansen
Had a point all along
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If Rev. Vosper is the face of the UCCan, that's because no one else says anything remotely interesting. I know you're different than most churches. Other people do not. All it would take to get noticed, is to say common sense things that go against what people expect of churches. Every time someone from another church says something stupid or bigoted that the common UCCan position would not agree with, that's an opportunity to come to the defense of someone or something, and provides the drama that the media wants. I'm not saying it's right, but people don't want to hear how you agree that drowning puppies is bad - everyone agrees. They would have listened to you over the sex ed curriculum debate that was largely opposed by religious groups. When other religious groups finally did decide to speak in favour of the new curriculum, the media talked to them. That I'm aware, UCCan was not among them.
Rev. Vosper made a very good point about the Charlie Hebdo killings. It was not the point that most would expect from a religious leader, so that makes the news. But there are plenty of non-churchy positions that are popular in the UCCan - it's not just Gretta who holds them. Few people think of you as any different than any other church. Your church could drive conversation about faith in Canada. But you don't want to rock the boat. You don't want to offend other churches. The same churches who say you're not real Christians. f*** them.
Rev. Vosper made a very good point about the Charlie Hebdo killings. It was not the point that most would expect from a religious leader, so that makes the news. But there are plenty of non-churchy positions that are popular in the UCCan - it's not just Gretta who holds them. Few people think of you as any different than any other church. Your church could drive conversation about faith in Canada. But you don't want to rock the boat. You don't want to offend other churches. The same churches who say you're not real Christians. f*** them.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
It might take several years to find a minister for West Hill.
Typically when there is a change in pastoral relations (ie when a minister leaves) a committee is formed with members from the congregation and the Presbytery to determine the needs of the congregation. This takes six months or more. Then a new committee is formed, again with members from the congregation and Presbytery, to issue a call and begin the search. Ministers show an interest, they are interviewed. A call goes out. If they accept, they give notice to their present congregation. Again the process might take six months or more. So, in the best of circumstances it might be a year or more before a new minister is in place.
That's in the best of circumstances. If there is a problem, an interim minister might be appointed for a year to assist in the healing process.
A few years ago in this Presbytery there was a minister of a large congregation who wasn't a good fit for the UCC. Many of the congregation left but he also attracted new people to replace them. Eventually there was enough conflict between him and the UCC that he left and accepted a leadership position in another denomination. I don't think there was a Review, he may have left before it started. Anyway, a recently retired minister was appointed to start the healing. Then an interim minister. Eventually with a lot of support from Presbytery a minister was called. They are gradually rebuilding their congregation. It is quite different from the one a few years ago.
Typically when there is a change in pastoral relations (ie when a minister leaves) a committee is formed with members from the congregation and the Presbytery to determine the needs of the congregation. This takes six months or more. Then a new committee is formed, again with members from the congregation and Presbytery, to issue a call and begin the search. Ministers show an interest, they are interviewed. A call goes out. If they accept, they give notice to their present congregation. Again the process might take six months or more. So, in the best of circumstances it might be a year or more before a new minister is in place.
That's in the best of circumstances. If there is a problem, an interim minister might be appointed for a year to assist in the healing process.
A few years ago in this Presbytery there was a minister of a large congregation who wasn't a good fit for the UCC. Many of the congregation left but he also attracted new people to replace them. Eventually there was enough conflict between him and the UCC that he left and accepted a leadership position in another denomination. I don't think there was a Review, he may have left before it started. Anyway, a recently retired minister was appointed to start the healing. Then an interim minister. Eventually with a lot of support from Presbytery a minister was called. They are gradually rebuilding their congregation. It is quite different from the one a few years ago.
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
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crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
Toronto Conference declined to reconsider the decision to initiate a review of Gretta Vosper 100-51. The review will proceed on June 29....... from Face Book
Congratulations to the Toronto Conference on declining to reconsider the decision!
revjohn
Well-Known Member
chansen said:
The first thing that will happen is that there will be a formal declaration that a vacancy exists and several options exist to fill that vacancy. An appointment of some kind will be made by Presbytery.
Each member of the congregation will need to decide for themselves how they will respond and the options that they have to consider are:
1) Participate in the process of calling another minister.
2) Transfer from West Hill to another congregation.
3) Quit participation in West Hill and/or another congregation.
4) Call for a congregational vote to disband the congregation.
chansen said:
Review continues with or without her participation. If the Reverend Vosper refuses to participate in a review it is most likely that she will be found lacking and:
A) Be instructed to take further education
B) Be placed on the Discontinued Service List.
chansen said:
Possibly it would. No guarantee that it would. Most clergy are not cookie cutter versions of some idealized minister.
chansen said:
Not likely no.
The Search Committee is supposed to be representative of the congregation though it isn't always so.
chansen said:
It is very possible that they will have a difficult search process. Quite simply given the history there may not be ministers looking for a new congregation interested in stepping into a congregation that may be very unsettled.
Congregations can reject intentional interim ministry. Congregations can also reject clergy that Presbytery thinks of appointing. Of course, congregations cannot call a minister without Presbytery's approval.
Any new clergyperson will be the result of West Hill and Presbytery coming to some kind of agreement.
chansen
Had a point all along
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LOL, it wasn't unsettled before. It was unsettled 10 years ago, but not now.
The sort of minister the congregation will want, will not meet the approval of Presbytery.
The likely result is West Hill United will fold. Gretta will probably soldier on either by herself or join the UUs. The review will essentially be for Gretta and her congregation. If you DSL the former, the latter is DOA.
Congratulations to the Toronto Conference on declining to reconsider the decision!
