Survey of UCC ministers

[Seeler]

During the past few months Rev. Richard Bott has been working on a survey of UCC ministers asking about their beliefs about God (yes, it was triggered by a claim that Vosper made on national TV).
The results of this survey are now on facebook. Could they be copied here so we could discuss them?
I find facebook great for comments but not indepth discussion.

 

[Jaebius]

During the past few months Rev. Richard Bott has been working on a survey of UCC ministers asking about their beliefs about God (yes, it was triggered by a claim that Vosper made on national TV).
The results of this survey are now on facebook. Could they be copied here so we could discuss them?
I find facebook great for comments but not indepth discussion.

Sure. Copy and paste and cite your source.

 

[Mendalla]

It is a fairly involved thing, with a PDF and a Powerpoint so we can't put the whole thing up here. I'll link them below so people can find them and I will email @RichardBott to let him now it is being discussed here. He does have an account on WC2, just doesn't use it often.

http://richardbott.com/download/uccan-ministers-and-god-survey-preliminary-report/ (the PDF of the actual report)

http://richardbott.com/download/uccan-ministers-and-god-preliminary-report-executive-summary-pdf/ (PDF of the Executive Summary, originally done in Powerpoint)

 

[GordW]

Here is teh Abstract from the report:

Abstract
The United Church of Canada (UCCan) takes a largely non-prescriptive approach to the beliefs about God held by its clergy, provided those can be argued to be "in essential agreement with the doctrine of the United Church of Canada.” It has recently been suggested, by UCCan ordained minister Gretta Vosper, that as many as half of UCCan clergy do not believe in a supernatural, theistic God. This research explores how ministry personnel in the United Church of Canada define some of their beliefs about divinity. Previous studies (Dennet & LaScola, 2010) have explored the beliefs of ministry personnel through anecdotal report, but have failed to offer quantifiable data, especially for the United Church of Canada, which is the largest Protestant denomination in Canada (Statistics Canada, 2001 Census). During the course of this research, 1353 UCCan ministry personnel responded to an online survey. A majority of the respondents (almost 95%) affirmed a belief in God, with a large number (almost 80%) affirming a belief in a supernatural, theistic God.

 

[Mendalla]

Initial comments;

I'm glad to see he's acknowledging the problem with the methodology (self-selecting, not a random sample) and recommending further study. Too often, surveys like this get thrown out as if they were gospel when they don't even meet basic statistical research standards. This is a good start, though.

It is interesting how different his result is from Gretta's hypothesis. As he suggests in recommendation 4 of the Executive Summary, it really highlights how risky making suppositions based on just talking to people are. This is why surveys and statistical research exist. Simply asking the people you know or who approach you likely leads to sample biases. His result, while not definitive and needing further work, does seem to affirm that the ministry of the UCCan is still predominantly theistic.

I do like his recommendation on the importance of defining our terms (3 in Executive Summary). Not everyone means the same thing by "God" and that came out in his survey in places. It seems that the UCCan is a diverse church, but it is diverse in its understandings of God, rather than in making belief in God one option as we UUs have.

 

[chansen]

Here is teh Abstract from the report:

Abstract
The United Church of Canada (UCCan) takes a largely non-prescriptive approach to the beliefs about God held by its clergy, provided those can be argued to be "in essential agreement with the doctrine of the United Church of Canada.” It has recently been suggested, by UCCan ordained minister Gretta Vosper, that as many as half of UCCan clergy do not believe in a supernatural, theistic God. This research explores how ministry personnel in the United Church of Canada define some of their beliefs about divinity. Previous studies (Dennet & LaScola, 2010) have explored the beliefs of ministry personnel through anecdotal report, but have failed to offer quantifiable data, especially for the United Church of Canada, which is the largest Protestant denomination in Canada (Statistics Canada, 2001 Census). During the course of this research, 1353 UCCan ministry personnel responded to an online survey. A majority of the respondents (almost 95%) affirmed a belief in God, with a large number (almost 80%) affirming a belief in a supernatural, theistic God.

Still, that's 5% who don't believe in God. That's still quite a few. And then when you look at pages 20-22, upwards of 20% of respondents would put themselves in the "upwards of 50%" group that Gretta referenced. So, by this exercise, it's not 50% - but it may still be between 5% and 20%, and that's still significant.

 

[Jaebius]

Still, that's 5% who don't believe in God. That's still quite a few. And then when you look at pages 20-22, upwards of 20% of respondents would put themselves in the "upwards of 50%" group that Gretta referenced. So, by this exercise, it's not 50% - but it may still be between 5% and 20%, and that's still significant.

And they should all resign as they are not fit to be Christian leaders.

 

[chansen]

You're not fit to be a leader. That much is painfully obvious, and yet you're trying to be one, and telling others who probably are very effective leaders that they don't qualify. The first group you said didn't qualify, did not have penises. This group doesn't have imaginary friends. What other groups, in your estimation, don't qualify to be Christian leaders? People who wear contact lenses?

 

[RichardBott]

Hi, folks - I renewed my password today! So I'll be around if there is any part of the conversation you'd like me to be a part of.

 

[chansen]

Good job, Richard. And good job on the report. That was quite the undertaking.

 

[Jaebius]

You're not fit to be a leader. That much is painfully obvious, and yet you're trying to be one, and telling others who probably are very effective leaders that they don't qualify.

*chuckle* Okay chansen. Thing is, I'm more fit to be a Christian leader than non-Christians because..... wait for it..... I'm actually a Christian.

The first group you said didn't qualify, did not have penises.

Which isn't the topic of this thread.

This group doesn't have imaginary friends. What other groups, in your estimation, don't qualify to be Christian leaders? People who wear contact lenses?

 

[chansen]

*chuckle* Okay chansen. Thing is, I'm more fit to be a Christian leader than non-Christians because..... wait for it..... I'm actually a Christian.

Yes, but you're socially inept, you have poor control of your emotions, and you think it's acceptable to bait people. You being a Christian only makes you a Christian. I would have RevJohn lead a group of atheists any day. Leaders can lead anything. You're a Christian male, and that has nothing to do with being a leader.

 

[RichardBott]

Thanks, Chansen - it was a good undertaking. I'm hoping that it actually helps the conversation.

 

[Jaebius]

Yes, but you're socially inept, you have poor control of your emotions, and you think it's acceptable to bait people.

Yes, I accept that as being your perception chansen. I do hope you feel better now having gotten that off your chest. Have a good night chansen. Sweet dreams.

 

[chansen]

That's likely a very common perception here. I don't think you're a bad person, but you're not a leader. You are very much a follower. It's something I've told you before, and I only really say it when you feel it is your duty to tell others they are not leadership material. I'm definitely not the only one to see the irony there, even if I am the only one who will come out and say it.

 

[Jaebius]

That's likely a very common perception here. I don't think you're a bad person, but you're not a leader. You are very much a follower. It's something I've told you before, and I only really say it when you feel it is your duty to tell others they are not leadership material. I'm definitely not the only one to see the irony there, even if I am the only one who will come out and say it.

Not going to go on discussing this with you chansen. Have a good night.

 

[Tabitha]

Thank you Richard for undertaking this study and for publishing it. Good work-and good to see you in person at Holy Shift.

 

[chansen]

Thank you Richard for undertaking this study and for publishing it. Good work-and good to see you in person at Holy Shift.

Say that five times quickly.

 

[RichardBott]

Say that five times quickly.

A number of us did, especially after a couple of libations. Fortunately, the restaurant was pretty quiet by that point!

Tabitha, it was great to see you, too!

 

[Tabitha]

@chansen An older lady asked our minister "Is that a joke?" and when he said yes said "ok" and was content. It was a weekend, partly sponsored by Leadership Shift, on being responsive to new ways of being the church.