God's Sovereignty And Our Freedom To Choose

[Luce NDs]

Possibly, whoever put the New testament together, didn't choose the books that would be consistent with Jesus' teaching on the subject? I doubt Jesus would be deliberately confusing us. It's one reason I am looking at the "heretical" gnostic gospels. (at least they were deemed to be). While some appear to be heretical, others not so much and were used by the early church.

This was before monarchal tyranny took over and started telling us about how we feel and sense everything ... tis overwhelming this mortal nonsense!

Ever sense that you are being told how you feel ... when you sense that you feel differently that some one else interprets your feeling ...?

If some one tells you to beat up your neighbour ... does this cause a conflict of sensations ... unless you let you empathy go ... sort of like selling the soul base of pathee as it may waver? Sort of like pithing against the Wahl ... when you know the divide is going to be your end ... thus split!

 

[revjohn]

Possibly, whoever put the New testament together, didn't choose the books that would be consistent with Jesus' teaching on the subject?

Or, just as possible, is that we today do not understand at all what it was that Jesus was preaching.

Is Jesus' gospel essentially a self-help gospel? Is it about the power of positive thinking? If it is neither then why do we allow either to contaminate the Christian faith? And does Paul suggest either are the heart of Christ's gospel?

I doubt Jesus would be deliberately confusing us.

Deliberate confusion does not appear to be a strategy employed by many of the heroes of the faith. We have in Jacob something of a trickster but nothing in that narrative suggests that being a trickster is a requirement so much as it points to a failure to trust God completely.

It's one reason I am looking at the "heretical" gnostic gospels. (at least they were deemed to be). While some appear to be heretical, others not so much and were used by the early church.

Appear to be heretical? They aren't heretical because of surface issues. They are heretical because of substance issues.

 

[Luce NDs]

Or, just as possible, is that we today do not understand at all what it was that Jesus was preaching.

Is Jesus' gospel essentially a self-help gospel? Is it about the power of positive thinking? If it is neither then why do we allow either to contaminate the Christian faith? And does Paul suggest either are the heart of Christ's gospel?



Deliberate confusion does not appear to be a strategy employed by many of the heroes of the faith. We have in Jacob something of a trickster but nothing in that narrative suggests that being a trickster is a requirement so much as it points to a failure to trust God completely.



Appear to be heretical? They aren't heretical because of surface issues. They are heretical because of substance issues.

In substance are there deep unsolved mysteries ... like how does a photon make an electron when bound to a protonic particle? Are these divisible quarks?

 

[blackbelt1961]

So another resurrection but without a new body?

no body but wings , since this happened in the states , I guess you can call it ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

WINGS OVER AMERICA

 

[Luce NDs]

Consider it beyond eM ...

 

[Waterfall]

Appear to be heretical? They aren't heretical because of surface issues. They are heretical because of substance issues.

Well let's take the Shepherd of Hermas for example, it was widely read by the early church (first century) and until the time of Origon it was accepted as scripture. It was included in the fourth century Codex Sinaiticus and it is unknown who the author or authors might be....much the same for the accepted gospels of today with unknown authorship.
It promotes an adoptionist Christology, that Jesus became God after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (after his baptism?), but as we're seeing within this thread there can be various interpretations of scripture with regards to salvation and free will even from what Christians today consider "accepted" scripture within the various books of the bible as we know it. Way back when, those with authority, church fathers, decided to choose the books that would be included within the bible, possibly related to their own theology that promoted a virgin birth, born divine, etc.....
Why do we not allow consideration for an adoptionist Christology if it was a very popular book and understanding during the first century among Jesus' followers? only because of a gathering of church fathers attempting (some 300 to 400 years after the fact), wanted to join everyone's beliefs together in a more universal understanding that forced everyone to participate within their chosen criteria or face death ?

 

[unsafe]

revjohn

Thanks for your reply ---We disagree on some points of your reply ------which is fine by me ---

Your Quote here ---- The Bible does not say that Grace comes through Faith in Jesus Christ it says by grace you have been saved and that salvation is through faith and none of it is by our own doing (the faith) it is entirely the gift of God.

unsafe says ---I think your splitting hairs here revjohn ------ I disagree with your quote above -----

Acts 15:5 AMP
11 But we believe (have faith in ) that we are saved through the [precious, undeserved] grace of the Lord Jesus [which makes us free of the guilt of sin and grants us eternal life], in just the same way as they are.”

this is the Greek word for believe in this scripture
4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.


Your Quote ----. We have no faith apart from God.

unsafe says ---This is a true statement -----But there are 3 types of Faith and only one type of Faith saves -----there is also many types of Grace that God gives -----Common Grace is given to all people saved or not ---when you open your eyes in the morning it is because of God's Grace --we do not even deserve to open our eyes in the morning ---we did nothing to deserve that -----it is by God's Grace ----

Saving Grace is the only Grace that will save us and that comes through Saving Faith in what Jesus did on the Cross for us and we get this Faith from us hearing God's word -----

Having the right kind of Faith is important in my view ------we are to believe without seeing -intellectual Faith only believes what our 5 senses can provide for us ----See ---feel ---taste ---touch and smell -----

Faith that produces without seeing can only be gotten by and through God's Word according to scripture ----now we can say this isn't true but that doesn't take away what scripture says in Romans 10:17------


Your Quote ----- While you can find word studies about Grace and what it means you consistently fail to refuse that meaning. This tells me that you are deeply scandalized by the notion of Grace. That God would give to somebody something that they could not earn themselves. This is demonstrated over and over again by you insisting that Grace is a reward for Faith which means that our faith forces God to forgive us. That somehow on some level we have not fallen short but rather we measure up and that we are not owed the wages of death in any way and have earned life eternal of our own free will.


unsafe says
By reading these --your remarks here ---With all due Respect I feel you are trying to say I am completely wrong and have no idea what Grace is and you are completely right in your assumption about what Grace is and isn't ------well this I say-- the word speaks for itself ---scripture will always give us the answers if we are open to letting it -----As far as I am concerned we are giving our opinions here -----your opinion is just that and my opinion is just that ------the Bible I feel describes what Grace is very well all by itself ----

Grace and Faith are 2 different things that work together for God's good -----that is my view

As far as Salvation goes I stand my ground in what the scripture says not what Religion says and the scripture is very clear ----that God's Grace provided Salvation that is God's Part ----We have our part and our part is to do as scripture says to accept what Jesus provided for us -------

Scripture is very clear on what our part is -----we can say no to it ---we can ignore it --etc -----but that change what the scripture says -----

We see it in ----Romans 10 ---the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…

Anyone who wants to do other than what the scripture says about Salvation in my opinion run the risk of not being saved -------this scripture below gives us this statement about belief ----it clearly says If we believe ------Free will shown here in my opinion ---which says to me we have a choice to believe or not --------

verse 5 below says this -----5 No one can defeat the world without having faith in Jesus as the Son of God.


unsafe posted scripture
1 John 5 (CEV)
Victory over the World

5 If we believe that Jesus is truly Christ, we are God’s children. Everyone who loves the Father will also love his children. 2 If we love and obey God, we know that we will love his children. 3 We show our love for God by obeying his commandments, and they are not hard to follow.

4 Every child of God can defeat the world, and our faith is what gives us this victory.

5 No one can defeat the world without having faith in Jesus as the Son of God.

Who Jesus Is
6 Water and blood came out from the side of Jesus Christ. It wasn’t just water, but water and blood.a]' data-fn="#fen-CEV-28516a">[a] The Spirit tells about this, because the Spirit is truthful. 7 In fact, there are three who tell about it. 8 They are the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and they all agree.

9 We believe what people tell us. But we can trust what God says even more, and God is the one who has spoken about his Son. 10 If we have faith in God’s Son, we have believed what God has said. But if we don’t believe what God has said about his Son, it is the same as calling God a liar. 11 God has also said that he gave us eternal life and that this life comes to us from his Son. 12 And so, if we have God’s Son, we have this life. But if we don’t have the Son, we don’t have this life.

Knowing about Eternal Life
13 All of you have faith in the Son of God, and I have written to let you know that you have eternal life. 14 We are certain that God will hear our prayers when we ask for what pleases him. 15 And if we know that God listens when we pray, we are sure that our prayers have already been answered.


This is an interesting article ------

We Are Saved by “Grace” Through Faith in Jesus Christ
We Are Saved by "Grace" Through Faith in Jesus Christ

unsafe says ----
We don't have to believe what we don't want to believe revjohn ---we have free will to make that choice ------

All I can say is good luck to those who follow their own beliefs about Salvation and how they are actually saved ---

We will all know for sure if we were saved right in the end -------

 

[GeoFee]

Some observations from left field:

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.”

This was written long before religious authority closed the Canon. Very convenient for that religious authority. As for the many religious authorities loose in the earth.

I have learned much by ‘scripture’ from all corners of time and space. The key being immersion in the language of diverse ‘scriptural’ sources. Allowing the imagination to experience different points of view on truth. Sorting out what helps from what hinders in our aspiration to authentic being in creation.

Heiddegar suggested language as the house of being. All peoples in all places have insights and encouragements to offer any dedicated seeker of truth. There is one truth available to multiple perspectives. Truth carved in stone is not truth.

With deep gratitude for the many authors who helped hear the word of God!

 

[unsafe]

This is interesting -----this says Faith is from God and a human response -----So many different views !

read all here
https://dmsbcatholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Faith_Booklet_2.pdf

What Is Faith?

Quotes taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (found online at: Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Faith is necessary for salvation “Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. (Cf. Mk 16:16; Jn. 3:36; 6:40)

‘Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life “But he who endures to the end.”’ (Dei Filius 3S 3012; cf. Mt 10:22; 24:13 and Heb. 11:6; Council of TrentS 1532" CCC 161 “Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: ‘He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned’ (Mk 16:16).” CCC 183

Faith is both a gift of God and a human act (in response to God) “In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace:

‘Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace’ (St. Thomas Aquinas)." CCC 155

 

[unsafe]

This is also interesting -----

3 different Doctrines on how to be saved -----Free Choice here ----


Three different doctrines about salvation

One of the most important topics – if not the most important topic – which is debated in Christian circles is the topic of “soteriology”. That topic discusses the subject of salvation – that is, the exact process by which a person is granted eternal life.

As with most other theological topics, there are many different beliefs about how, exactly, a person can be saved. However, from my experience, there are threeprimary belief systems about that subject – and those three beliefs will be discussed in this post.



The “Evangelical” Doctrine

The “evangelical” belief system is (by far) the most common salvation belief, among mainstream Christian denominations. According to this belief, everyonehas the opportunity to be saved, during this current age – due to the crucifixion of Jesus. In other words, each and every person has the ability to be saved, right now – all that is required is that any given person decides to follow Jesus.

This belief system is extremely “human-centric”. In other words, since salvation is currently accessible to everyone, that means that the entire salvation decision rests with humans. In other words, God does not really enter the picture at all – instead, each person’s salvation (or condemnation) rests with him, alone.

So, for all intents and purposes, this doctrine states that salvation is completelydetermined by humans – i.e., God essentially has nothing to do with salvation.



The “Calvinistic” Doctrine

A subset of Christian denominations subscribe to a more “Calvinistic” belief about salvation. This belief states that God, Himself, has already decided which people will be saved, and which people will be condemned. Basically, before the earth even existed, God looked forward in time, and saw every human who would ever be born. Then, God “divided up” those humans into two groups – the “saved” group, and the “condemned” group.

This belief system is extremely “God-centric”. In other words, in this belief system, God has complete control over any given person’s salvation – the person, himself, does not have any influence over his salvation at all. In fact, in this belief system, the decision about whether you will be saved or not has already been made – it was made by God, millions of years ago!

So, for all intents and purposes, this doctrine states that salvation is completelydetermined by God – i.e., humans essentially have nothing to do with salvation.



The “Reciprocal” Doctrine

A tiny minority of Christian groups have a “reciprocal” view of salvation. There are several different points to note about this doctrine. First of all, this doctrine states that it is necessary for God to explicitly “call” any given person, in order for that person to have any ability to be saved. In other words, if God does not call a person, then that person cannot be saved, at all.

In addition, this doctrine states that God is not calling everyone, during this current age. In other words, God, is only calling a subset of people, during the current age.

Finally, this doctrine states that if God does call a person, then it is incumbent upon that person to “respond” to God’s call. In other words, God’s call allows a person to be saved; but then the person, himself, needs to start trying to follow God and Jesus, if he wants to be saved.

So, according to this belief, salvation is the result of “cooperation”, between God and humans. In other words, both God and humans are involved in the salvation process.



Which doctrine has the most Scriptural support?

Of course, whenever any theological doctrine is discussed, it is necessary to determine which of the various beliefs holds the greatest claim to Scriptural truth. So, consider the following passages:

1. God’s call to salvation:

John 6:44 (ESV):

44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

John 6:65 (ESV):

65And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Both of the above verses indicate to me that God needs to explicitly “call” any given person – before that person will have any ability to be saved.

Next, consider these passages:

2. The sower:

Matthew 13:18-19 (ESV):

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.

Luke 8:9-12 (ESV):

9And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Both of the above passages indicate to me that knowledge about the kingdom of God is necessary for salvation – and that God is NOT revealing that knowledge to everyone, during this age!

Finally, consider these passages:

3. The “ifs” of Christianity:

Colossians 21:1-23 (ESV):

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (ESV):

1Now I would remind you, brothers,of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain.

Hebrews 10:26-27 (ESV):

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

All of the above passages indicate to me that God is not offering salvation to everyone during this age – and even if He does offer salvation to a given person, that person, himself, needs to “respond” to God’s call, in order to be saved.



Conclusion

From all of the above information, it appears to me that the “reciprocal” doctrine about salvation is the closest to the truth, among the three overall doctrines.

 

[GeoFee]

What does all of this look like at street level? What are the characteristics of one holding fast to "true" doctrine in relationship with other human beings. Family, friends, neighbours, strangers and also enemies.

 

[Luce NDs]

What does all of this look like at street level? What are the characteristics of one holding fast to "true" doctrine in relationship with other human beings. Family, friends, neighbours, strangers and also enemies.

With all the lies afloat in this world ... is honesty corrupted unconsciously due to all that we don't really know about?

 

[revjohn]

Thanks for your reply

Again, you are welcome.

We disagree on some points of your reply

We?

I think your splitting hairs here revjohn

The issue is not whether I am splitting hairs. The issue is whether or not my read of scripture is accurate.

I disagree with your quote above

Which is fair. You are in no way obligated to believe by grace you have been saved and that salvation is through faith and none of it is by our own doing (the faith) it is entirely the gift of God.

[FONT=Open Sans, sans-serif]I maintain that our faith is no less a gift of God's grace than is our salvation. You are free to disagree with that as well.

If you want to insist that our Faith is the product of our free and untarnished will rather than God's action I invite you to point to texts which instruct us to believe that.

Ephesians 2: 8 is very clear when it says, "and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God."

When you produce a scripture that claims it is our own doing and not the gift of God then I will have cause to reconsider my opinion. Unitl then I won't.

[/FONT]
Acts 15:5 AMP
11 But we believe (have faith in ) that we are saved through the [precious, undeserved] grace of the Lord Jesus [which makes us free of the guilt of sin and grants us eternal life], in just the same way as they are.”

Which comes first unsafe? Is it our belief that we are saved or the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And if grace is undeserved then why do you insist that our faith must come first. Because quite frankly if our faith comes first then our salvation is earned and we cannot ever again speak of the grace of God. Salvation is not by the grace of God it is God rightly rewarding us for doing the right thing.

That you continue to present this is why I made the claim that you do not comprehend what grace is.

Thanks for the word study. It doesn't do anything to explain how a belief in can be arrived at without the thing believed in existing in the first place. At most belief in is a reaction to a previous action.

Also the word does not explain how belief comes to be, it does not tell us that it is something that spontaneously generates in ourselves or if it is something God facilitates within us.

unsafe says ---This is a true statement -----But

It is a true statement.

You may not be aware of how the conjunction but is used. Three conjunctions and, but and or then simply explained.

The conjunction "and" is used when two ideas are presented in a complimentary fashion. Such as beans and rice. It means that the beans come with the rice. You get both no choice between the two. Essentially it is a this and that construction.

The conjunction "or" is used when two ideas are presented in a conflicting fashion. Such as beans or rice. It means that you must make a choice and you are not permitted both. You can have the beans or you can have the rice. It is a this or that that construction.

The conjunction "but" is used when two ideas are presented and the second negates the first. Such as not beans but rice. The not need not be written it is always implied. Like or it means that you do not get both and it goes a little further by saying which one you will be getting. Again it is a not this but that construction.

So, when you tell me that I have made a true statement but what you are really communicating, whether you intend to or not is that you are about to negate the true statement it simply doesn't matter.

After acknowledging I made a true statement you attempt to negate it by bringing up the 3 types of faith.

There are 3 types of Faith but only one saves. Fair enough.

I stated, "We have no faith apart from God." does the one saving Faith exist apart from God?

You also claim that there are many types of Grace that God gives. . . Saving Grace is the only grace that will save us. Also Fair.

Does that saving Grace exist apart from God?

If they do then my statement is not true. If they don't my statement is true and you are trying to justify yourself rather than giving God glory.

Having the right kind of Faith is important in my view

Having the right kind of Faith eliminates the possibility of Grace and is works righteousness.

Faith that produces without seeing can only be gotten by and through God's Word according to scripture

Which I do not argue with. God reveals God's self through God's word. Only by that proactive revelation can we react in faith. God plants the seed (authors our faith) God nurtures that faith and brings it through to completion. Which is what I have been saying repeatedly and in concert with Paul in Ephesians 2: 8, "and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God."

Show me why that isn't so.

now we can say this isn't true but that doesn't take away what scripture says in Romans 10:17

I agree. It doesn't take away from what the scriptures say in Romans 10: 17. And Romans 10: 17 cannot be divorced from the scriptures which clearly teach that our Faith is a gift (such as Paul insists in Ephesians 2: 8) and not our own doing. Romans 10: 17 cannot be divorced from the scriptures which claim that Jesus is the author and perfector (Hebrews 12: 2, Philippians 1: 6) of our faith.

So when we read the passage in Romans

So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

We are forced to accept that this faith is not something which spontaneously erupts out of nothing by an act of human will. It is the result of God making revelation through Jesus Christ. It is like expecting a garden to grow a plant the seed of which has never been sown. If that seed grows in you it wasn't planted by you or your will it was planted by God according to God's will. That seed will grow because that is what God has designed it to do. How well it grows depends upon the kind of soil you represent which is not within your will to control either.

You cannot read Romans 10: 17 in the context of the entire chapter and logically come to the conclusion that your faith is something you accomplished.

14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent?

How can you read this passage and come to the conclusion that belief happens apart from God sending individuals into the world to proclaim Christ Jesus?

With all due Respect I feel you are trying to say I am completely wrong and have no idea what Grace is and you are completely right in your assumption about what Grace is and isn't

With reciprocating respect why does it bother you when I do that and you aren't as bothered when you do that to others?

And for the record, I am not saying you are completely wrong. I am saying you are scandalized by the notion that God would do something for you that you could not do for yourself. Somewhere, deep in the heart of you, you resent the notion that you were powerless on any level and that you didn't just need some help from God you needed God to accomplish everything.

That bugs you.

Which is why you can study the word grace, find it in scripture, note that there are different kinds of it but never allow any part of it to be responsible for your salvation because, if you did allow that you would be forced to confront the reality that you do not deserve to be forgiven nor do you deserve to be loved by God.

Which is terrifying. I know because I have already confronted that reality.

The only recourse is for God to be the sole agent of salvation. Which is what the scriptures teach. Whose arm is mighty to save? Is it yours? Is it mine? Is it God's?

well this I say-- the word speaks for itself

I agree with this. I note that we are not always the best at listening.

scripture will always give us the answers if we are open to letting it

I won't argue with that. I do note the condition of our being open is in play and as mentioned above we are not always the best at listening.

the Bible I feel describes what Grace is very well all by itself

I agree with you. Which is always why I am surprised when folk try to transform Grace from unmerited favour/undeserved gift to the right wage for right action.

Grace and Faith are 2 different things that work together for God's good -----that is my view

Fair enough.

My view is slightly different. Grace is any gift God gives to me which I do not deserve. Faith is but one of those gifts. The sower sows a seed. I'm not the sower. Sometimes, God graciously allows me to pitch in and help out in that regard, in much the same way a seed that is sown in the soil that is me may grow to maturity and put forth its own seed. Which isn't really the garden doing the seeding or the reseeding. It is the seed doing what God created it to do. At best I provide the place for the seed to do its thing. And we know from the parable of the sower the seed will begin to grow anywhere it is planted. Only the deep soil that is free from weeds allows the seed to reach maturity and begin reseeding itself. Gardens are not self weeding.

As far as Salvation goes I stand my ground in what the scripture says not what Religion says

Except for the fact that your opinion is one that has been shaped by a lot of what Religion has to say on the matter of Grace and salvation. I am not saying that I am immune from that either. What I am saying is that these Religions are wrestling with scriptures, often the same ones and they are not equally adept at letting scripture speak for itself.

and the scripture is very clear ----that God's Grace provided Salvation

No argument from me on that Sola Gratia has been a tenant of the Reformed Christian Faith from the beginning.

that is God's Part ----We have our part and our part is to do as scripture says to accept what Jesus provided for us

Here is where we diverge. I do not believe that we have a part, that God's Salvific Grace is so weak and ineffectual that it can be thwarted by human will. The texts tell us God's arm is mighty to save, they do not tell us that God's arm is mighty to save only when we help it. The reason why they don't is because if God requires our effort then God's arm is not actually mighty enough to save.

I don't deny that faith is involved. I simply do not give us any credit for it. We do not invent it, we do not create it and without God's intervention via revelation and sending folk out to proclaim it. Otherwise, nothing happens and we have nothing which we can believe in.

Scripture is very clear on what our part is

I disagree on that. Scripture is very clear about how we will respond to grace and how the Holy Spirit will work to transform us because of our salvation. It doesn't actually provide a recipe of what we must do to be saved again, God's arm is mighty to save or it isn't. I believe it is.

we can say no to it

Sure we can. Just like Moses objected when he was called and God said, Okay, whatever you say. Just like Jonah objected when he was called and God said, Okay, whatever you say. In fact many of the prophets God called within the pages of scripture had ready reasons for themselves to be disqualified from the call. The Bible would be a tremendously different read from start to finish if folk were able to blow of God so easily or if God could be thwarted so quickly.

But that is another area where you and I disagree. You find the grace of God ultimately resistable. I find the grace of God ultimately irresistable.

We see it in ----Romans 10 ---the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…

If only it were so bolded and underlined in the original text eh? Or that we could separate one bit of text from all the other texts which inform it. So that we could twist it whichever way suited our religious sensibilities.

The word of faith that we are proclaiming? Who is responsible for that? Is that something God reveals and God gives or something that humans will into existence out of nothing?

How can one confess that Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit gives that revelation to them? Are you suggesting that the phrase is a magic formula which obligates God? Does not Satan in Hell know that Jesus is Lord? How is that to his profit. And every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father are you going to claim that as a proof for universal salvation?

How can you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead if, God did not raise Jesus from the dead? Is that something that comes from the revelation of God or is it something that you whip out of nothing all on your own?

Are either of these things true because they did happen or do they only become true because you believe that they happened?

Anyone who wants to do other than what the scripture says about Salvation in my opinion run the risk of not being saved

Is that because God's arm is insufficiently mighty to save them and they refuse to save themselves?

it clearly says

If we believe

It also clearly says that, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God."

If I bold it, underline it and italicise it does that make it any clearer or more true?

Free will

shown here in my opinion

Except you have done nothing to prove that the human will is free. I have asked you if the human will was not corrupted by the fall. As near as I can tell you have made no effort to show that the human will is free from corruption. I point to all having sinned and all falling short and you appear to suggest that simply is not the case and that we can actually reach the bull's eye by our own effort.

which says to me we have a choice to believe or not

That being so Christ is neither the author nor perfecter of our faith which is contrary to the assertion of scripture.

We don't have to believe what we don't want to believe revjohn

Which is only true if we are saved by Grace alone. If Grace needs our help, as you insist, we have to believe as you do or we will not be saved.

we have free will to make that choice

Still waiting for you to provide the scriptural support which confirms that opinion.

All I can say is good luck to those who follow their own beliefs about Salvation and how they are actually saved

Which is you once more intimating that there is no free will to choose. There are consequences for making a wrong choice which demonstrates that there is no freedom to make a choice.

We will all know for sure if we were saved right in the end

Saved right? Properly saved? Can we be saved wrong or improperly saved?

 

[Luce NDs]

If God is eternal ... thus encompassing everything, something and nothing only escapes ... can a person with any knowledge at all escape recycling in Gods thought organ ... a grandiose soul?

The bible mentions knowledge (intelligence, information, etc.) and the connection with ongoing wisdom ... an enigma for those people that choose not to read literature of any sort but spout what they've heard from tyrants they honour.

Knowledge is power but many put brute emotional strength ahead of lesser thoughts ... a Roman contribution to republicanism of one stage or another 1, 2, 5th republic ... or more?

Nothing is hard to take given the trouble supporting absolute vacuum and absolute absence of energy ... even Black Holes are reputed to explode when energized to a point!

There even is a theory that the universe exploded out of a point ...

 

[unsafe]

revjohn

Appreciate your reply ----I ask one favour with all due respect ---Please quote the whole quote that you are replying to -----I find it very hard to follow your one word or 2 word Quotes and then your reply ---like this below -----it really makes no sense to me ------- I don't have the full quote from me to know what I said all I have is a word or 2 -----I can't compare your quote to what you are saying I said cause you choose a word or 2 ----it is very disjointed and confusing in my view -----

unsafe says -----Don't know how you come to your conclusion about all this corrupted free will or sin from what you posted from Me here----nothing about corrupted free will or non corrupted free will or sin mentioned in the words you have quoted from me here ----- sounds like your rambling about things I never said ------show me where I said all these things that you have in your quote saying I said all these things -----especially this your quote below saying--- I said we can reach the bull's eye by our own effort ---Show me where I ever said that ------ I point to all having sinned and all falling short and you appear to suggest that simply is not the case and that we can actually reach the bull's eye by our own effort -- Proof Please ------

This is what you have taken and Quoted from me -----these 2 quotes only then you comment -----
unsafe said:
Free will

unsafe said:
shown here in my opinion

Your Quote here
Except you have done nothing to prove that the human will is free. I have asked you if the human will was not corrupted by the fall. As near as I can tell you have made no effort to show that the human will is free from corruption. I point to all having sinned and all falling short and you appear to suggest that simply is not the case and that we can actually reach the bull's eye by our own effort.



unsafe says
Your belief is your belief just like my belief is my belief -----we will know in the end the truth but until then we will continue to agree on some things and disagree on other things when it comes to scripture and that is fine by me ----

Your Quote --------Except you have done nothing to prove that the human will is free. I have asked you if the human will was not corrupted by the fall.

unsafe says
I believe that man's free will in their fallen state is in bondage to a pattern of thinking that produces failure ----people of this world will be in bondage to follow the god of this world ----that being said I believe that God tugs on the heart of sinners and sinners have a free choice to reject or accept that tugging -----Satan tugs on people to stay in his world so for me it makes sense that God would try to tug on the hearts of sinners to see the light -----

I know for a fact God many times tugged on me when I was a sinner but I refused to reciprocate ----I feel the reason I didn't reciprocate is because I liked the life I was leading at that time and didn't want to change my ways ----it was not that I couldn't I didn't want to as I felt that the Christians I knew at the time my Brother being one of them were boring and just wanted to tell me how bad I was living -----But I eventually did listen and glad I did -----I don't believe God ever stops tugging on sinners hearts ----God wants all saved not just some in my Bible ---


Now here is the thing-----we should look at this before the fall -----

Adam and Eve were under God's rule and control in the Garden as a matter of fact God chose the names Adam and Eve they never had a choice of what their names would be -----they didn't choose to be in the Garden God's chose that for them ----God had complete control over all they did in the Garden ----they never left the Garden and they never ask to leave the Garden ----God created the whole world ----if they had had free choice to choose where to live maybe they would have chosen to be out of the Garden fending for themselves apart from God---who knows --------no where does it say Adam had free choice -----God gave them instructions they followed and were in fellowship with Him ----

God does with Adam as He wishes ----He makes Him fall asleep ---Adam had no free will to choose not to sleep -----God produces a woman from Adam ---Adam has no say in what is happing to him -----they are spiritually in harmony with God doing as God directs -----

So we can see there is no free human will to make decisions before Satan entered ----- no where does it say Adam and Eve did anything apart from God's Will for them before Satan tricked Eve into taking the forbidden Fruit by -----Eve was seduced to sin --Adam then chose or was persuaded to follow what his wife did ---only after Satan appeared in the Garden ----before that They adhered to God and did not Question or show free will in my opinion ------

Then ------God says if you eat of the tree of good and evil your eyes will be open and you will die -----die to what Die --to God's sovereign control over them because they were disconnected Spiritually to God and became venerable to knowing good and evil which brings 2 choices ---

Before the fall they only knew good they knew not evil ----so before the fall there was one choice ---after the fall there are 2 choices -----

Sin entering the world brought in free choice as far as good and evil were concerned ???????----just throwing this out there

Now we have 2 Choices ----we can choose Life or death ------before the fall ---in the Garden there was only one way --Life ---death was not in the picture --God created Humans to live in Spiritual harmony with Him forever under His Rule and Will ------we changed that


unsafe says ----For me this scripture shows we have free choice in our fallen state ----you may not think so but I do --so we may very well disagree with this -----Sinners have tongues and they can speak to choose -----then there is this scripture below with the word Choose ----

Proverbs 18:21 (KJV)
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.


Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (GW)
Choose between Life and Death
15 Today I offer you life and prosperity or death and destruction.
19 I call on heaven and earth as witnesses today that I have offered you life or death, blessings or curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants will live


Here is the question --was Faith introduced in the Garden ???

As far as Faith goes the scripture says you can't please God without Faith --so Faith was first in the beginning in my view to even please God--- Why would God create the first Humans and not in birth Faith in them so they could please Him ------you may see it different -----so we would disagree on this issue ----

Did Adam and Eve in the Garden before Satan have Faith and trust in God-- that God would take care of them -did they worry about not being taken care of by God in other words were they Faithless in this area----

Was their Faith being Tested by God here ---God allowed Satan in the Garden to speak to Eve -----Why would God do that -----Does He test our Faith from time to time -----

unsafe says
God's Grace provided the Garden and all they needed to survive --------now here is the thing -----I believe that living Faith as a requirement began with Adam and Eve in the Garden ----All Adam and Eve Had was the Word of God ----God's word that He spoke to them gave them hope for the future ----Faith is the substance that brings our hope from the unseen into this seen realm -----Living Faith comes from hearing the word of God ----So from the start God was speaking Faith to them -----God told them they were to look after the garden and take care of it ---they had to feel they could do this task so they had to have Living Faith ---So God Provided the Garden by His Grace ---but then by Faith they had the confidence that they would be faithful to do the task God had bestowed on them -----So by Faith they are taking care of what God's Grace gave them which is the Garden -----

unsafe says
There is a scripture that says Cast Not Away Your Confidence for it has great recompense of rewards -----Hebrews 10 :35

This word confidence in Greek -----

4006. pepoithésis ►
Strong's Concordance
pepoithésis: confidence
Original Word: πεποίθησις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pepoithésis
Phonetic Spelling: (pep-oy'-thay-sis)
Short Definition: confidence, trust
Definition: confidence, trust, reliance.
(4006 /pepoíthēsis) through the (principle) of faith that is given by Him."


Now ----Satan came and attacked their Faith in what God said to them ----Satan will attack Faith and that is what he did with Eve ---Satan made her doubt and then Adam followed suit ---So God tested their Faith and they failed the test ------hence the fall brought in 2 choices -----


The parable of the sower tells us that -----Living Faith ----Faith that produces has to be grounded and rooted deep in our heart to survive Satan's attack on our Faith -----if Faith is not grounded and rooted Satan can steal it from us making us doubt like he did Eve ------ we are to fight the good fight of Faith --1 Tim 6:12 ---there is a spiritual war going on and the battle line is drawn over our Faith -----

unsafe say
We cannot choose to change God's will for His plans -----But in our fallen state we still can chose right or wrong in my view ----Sinners can do good things ----they just don't Glorify God -----We choose to sin ----we are not forced to sin is my view ----We have free choice to repent or not to repent ----

 

[Luce NDs]

revjohn

Appreciate your reply ----I ask one favour with all due respect ---Please quote the whole quote that you are replying to -----I find it very hard to follow your one word or 2 word Quotes and then your reply ---like this below -----it really makes no sense to me ------- I don't have the full quote from me to know what I said all I have is a word or 2 -----I can't compare your quote to what you are saying I said cause you choose a word or 2 ----it is very disjointed and confusing in my view -----

unsafe says -----Don't know how you come to your conclusion about all this corrupted free will or sin from what you posted from Me here----nothing about corrupted free will or non corrupted free will or sin mentioned in the words you have quoted from me here ----- sounds like your rambling about things I never said ------show me where I said all these things that you have in your quote saying I said all these things -----especially this your quote below saying--- I said we can reach the bull's eye by our own effort ---Show me where I ever said that ------ I point to all having sinned and all falling short and you appear to suggest that simply is not the case and that we can actually reach the bull's eye by our own effort -- Proof Please ------

This is what you have taken and Quoted from me -----these 2 quotes only then you comment -----
unsafe said:
Free will

unsafe said:
shown here in my opinion

Your Quote here
Except you have done nothing to prove that the human will is free. I have asked you if the human will was not corrupted by the fall. As near as I can tell you have made no effort to show that the human will is free from corruption. I point to all having sinned and all falling short and you appear to suggest that simply is not the case and that we can actually reach the bull's eye by our own effort.



unsafe says
Your belief is your belief just like my belief is my belief -----we will know in the end the truth but until then we will continue to agree on some things and disagree on other things when it comes to scripture and that is fine by me ----

Your Quote --------Except you have done nothing to prove that the human will is free. I have asked you if the human will was not corrupted by the fall.

unsafe says
I believe that man's free will in their fallen state is in bondage to a pattern of thinking that produces failure ----people of this world will be in bondage to follow the god of this world ----that being said I believe that God tugs on the heart of sinners and sinners have a free choice to reject or accept that tugging -----Satan tugs on people to stay in his world so for me it makes sense that God would try to tug on the hearts of sinners to see the light -----

I know for a fact God many times tugged on me when I was a sinner but I refused to reciprocate ----I feel the reason I didn't reciprocate is because I liked the life I was leading at that time and didn't want to change my ways ----it was not that I couldn't I didn't want to as I felt that the Christians I knew at the time my Brother being one of them were boring and just wanted to tell me how bad I was living -----But I eventually did listen and glad I did -----I don't believe God ever stops tugging on sinners hearts ----God wants all saved not just some in my Bible ---


Now here is the thing-----we should look at this before the fall -----

Adam and Eve were under God's rule and control in the Garden as a matter of fact God chose the names Adam and Eve they never had a choice of what their names would be -----they didn't choose to be in the Garden God's chose that for them ----God had complete control over all they did in the Garden ----they never left the Garden and they never ask to leave the Garden ----God created the whole world ----if they had had free choice to choose where to live maybe they would have chosen to be out of the Garden fending for themselves apart from God---who knows --------no where does it say Adam had free choice -----God gave them instructions they followed and were in fellowship with Him ----

God does with Adam as He wishes ----He makes Him fall asleep ---Adam had no free will to choose not to sleep -----God produces a woman from Adam ---Adam has no say in what is happing to him -----they are spiritually in harmony with God doing as God directs -----

So we can see there is no free human will to make decisions before Satan entered ----- no where does it say Adam and Eve did anything apart from God's Will for them before Satan tricked Eve into taking the forbidden Fruit by -----Eve was seduced to sin --Adam then chose or was persuaded to follow what his wife did ---only after Satan appeared in the Garden ----before that They adhered to God and did not Question or show free will in my opinion ------

Then ------God says if you eat of the tree of good and evil your eyes will be open and you will die -----die to what Die --to God's sovereign control over them because they were disconnected Spiritually to God and became venerable to knowing good and evil which brings 2 choices ---

Before the fall they only knew good they knew not evil ----so before the fall there was one choice ---after the fall there are 2 choices -----

Sin entering the world brought in free choice as far as good and evil were concerned ???????----just throwing this out there

Now we have 2 Choices ----we can choose Life or death ------before the fall ---in the Garden there was only one way --Life ---death was not in the picture --God created Humans to live in Spiritual harmony with Him forever under His Rule and Will ------we changed that


unsafe says ----For me this scripture shows we have free choice in our fallen state ----you may not think so but I do --so we may very well disagree with this -----Sinners have tongues and they can speak to choose -----then there is this scripture below with the word Choose ----

Proverbs 18:21 (KJV)
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.


Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (GW)
Choose between Life and Death
15 Today I offer you life and prosperity or death and destruction.
19 I call on heaven and earth as witnesses today that I have offered you life or death, blessings or curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants will live


Here is the question --was Faith introduced in the Garden ???

As far as Faith goes the scripture says you can't please God without Faith --so Faith was first in the beginning in my view to even please God--- Why would God create the first Humans and not in birth Faith in them so they could please Him ------you may see it different -----so we would disagree on this issue ----

Did Adam and Eve in the Garden before Satan have Faith and trust in God-- that God would take care of them -did they worry about not being taken care of by God in other words were they Faithless in this area----

Was their Faith being Tested by God here ---God allowed Satan in the Garden to speak to Eve -----Why would God do that -----Does He test our Faith from time to time -----

unsafe says
God's Grace provided the Garden and all they needed to survive --------now here is the thing -----I believe that living Faith as a requirement began with Adam and Eve in the Garden ----All Adam and Eve Had was the Word of God ----God's word that He spoke to them gave them hope for the future ----Faith is the substance that brings our hope from the unseen into this seen realm -----Living Faith comes from hearing the word of God ----So from the start God was speaking Faith to them -----God told them they were to look after the garden and take care of it ---they had to feel they could do this task so they had to have Living Faith ---So God Provided the Garden by His Grace ---but then by Faith they had the confidence that they would be faithful to do the task God had bestowed on them -----So by Faith they are taking care of what God's Grace gave them which is the Garden -----

unsafe says
There is a scripture that says Cast Not Away Your Confidence for it has great recompense of rewards -----Hebrews 10 :35

This word confidence in Greek -----

4006. pepoithésis ►
Strong's Concordance
pepoithésis: confidence
Original Word: πεποίθησις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pepoithésis
Phonetic Spelling: (pep-oy'-thay-sis)
Short Definition: confidence, trust
Definition: confidence, trust, reliance.
(4006 /pepoíthēsis) through the (principle) of faith that is given by Him."


Now ----Satan came and attacked their Faith in what God said to them ----Satan will attack Faith and that is what he did with Eve ---Satan made her doubt and then Adam followed suit ---So God tested their Faith and they failed the test ------hence the fall brought in 2 choices -----


The parable of the sower tells us that -----Living Faith ----Faith that produces has to be grounded and rooted deep in our heart to survive Satan's attack on our Faith -----if Faith is not grounded and rooted Satan can steal it from us making us doubt like he did Eve ------ we are to fight the good fight of Faith --1 Tim 6:12 ---there is a spiritual war going on and the battle line is drawn over our Faith -----

unsafe say
We cannot choose to change God's will for His plans -----But in our fallen state we still can chose right or wrong in my view ----Sinners can do good things ----they just don't Glorify God -----We choose to sin ----we are not forced to sin is my view ----We have free choice to repent or not to repent ----

Yet hating the neighbour is still good for succession ... thus royal families may kill one another off ... especially in the father son conflict ... tis in the myths!

 

[Jobam]

Most of this is over my head. I have a few basic questions which I think tie directly into the thread. Do we have free will and/or are our lives predestined? What is the different between the two?

 

[revjohn]

Most of this is over my head.

Apologies for my part in that.

Do we have free will and/or are our lives predestined?

That is the question in a nutshell.

What is the different between the two?

Ultimately it boils down to agency with respect to salvation.

The Free-will argument posits that I am an agent with respect to my salvation, that ultimately God's desire to save me falls short if I am not willing to pitch in and assist God in saving me.

It renders God impotent or incompletely potent.

The Pre-Destination argument posits that all of humanity is Fallen (alienated from God) and that God graciously lifts some (not all) out of their fallen state through salvation. Ultimately God is the only agent of salvation and my salvation depends entirely on God's sovereign choice to save me.

From those starting points each position branches out in helpful and less than helpful ways.

 

[BetteTheRed]

And the third position in this triumvirate would be universalism, that Godde chooses to save all of Godde's creation?

And with the Pre-destination position, is it important "when" Godde decides this, i.e., it's set in stone long before a soul is born, or it's a snap decision by Godde at the point of death?

 

[Mendalla]

And the third position in this triumvirate would be universalism, that Godde chooses to save all of Godde's creation?

Strictly speaking, that's still predestination. God decided at the beginning of time to save everyone, instead of just "The Elect". It's predestination because our destination was decided before we were born based on God's will, not our merit.