God's Sovereignty And Our Freedom To Choose

[unsafe]

Jae
Why would God give Adam ad Eve free Choice before the Fall and then take it away after the fall ------that was never part of the curse that God gave them ---no where did God say ---you had free will to choose before you disobeyed and now I have taken that from you as punishment ------


You are grasping at straws again Jae -------if God is Sovereign and is in charge of all we do ----then that puts God in the drivers seat not us ---God would have given a Command that would have set them up for the fall which would make God plotting evil so He could curse them ------and then why should Adam and Eve be disciplined for something that was not their fault ----

 

[Jae]

Jae
Why would God give Adam ad Eve free Choice before the Fall and then take it away after the fall ------that was never part of the curse that God gave them ---no where did God say ---you had free will to choose before you disobeyed and now I have taken that from you as punishment ------


You are grasping at straws again Jae -------if God is Sovereign and is in charge of all we do ----then that puts God in the drivers seat not us ---God would have given a Command that would have set them up for the fall which would make God plotting evil so He could curse them ------and then why should Adam and Eve be disciplined for something that was not their fault ----

Chuckling at how you take my belief "we start out in bondage to sin" as meaning, "I believe in a determinist God."

 

[unsafe]

This is a 4 min video ---does this shed any light on a hard subject

Predestination: the paradox of election and free will

 

[GeoFee]

Let me start my thinking here:

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another."
​

In Christ I am liberated from any and all subordination to the claims of power in the world. Indeed, I am dead to the way of the world and alive to the way of the Holy Spirit. Not the Holy Spirit of Christian doctrine. The living Holy Spirit which is like the wind; nobody knows where it comes from and nobody knows where it goes. Any surprise that I prefer anarchy to the diverse structures of power now devastating the earth and its peoples? Anarchy understood as freedom from the authority of law. Not as permission to indulge the ego and its appetites.

Ancient stories say God formed creation and set human being at its heart. That creation being what we consider the natural order. An order with strict laws specific to any species surviving and flourishing. We may take the law of gravity as an example. If you step off a high building you will fall to the street below. The consequent injury is directly related to failing to respect the law of gravity; a law of nature. What we are now experiencing as a species is not in any way to be considered as the judgement of some supreme adjudicator sitting on some celestial throne. It is the simple consequence of our refusal to respect the limit of nature. Chaos is in the wings.

We who are free in spirit and in truth are well prepared for physical and psychological nightmare now on its way. Not only to maintain our own balanced presence. Also to be servants of the suffering all about us. Helpers and teachers equipping persons to survive the wilderness experience of civilizational collapse.

Of course, as ever in the historical record, those well served by prevailing structures of power are lost in the diversions and distractions of the market economy. Gladly going deeper and deeper into debt to obtain the latest and the newest human invention as a sign of worth and status. For the most part wholly oblivious to the pending disaster.

God is no puppet master killing woman and children by the millions while Back to the Gospel and Focus on the Family folk eat, drink and be merry on some Disney cruise. God is calling those with surplus to freely share with those left on the short end of the stick at every human level. Responding in freedom we follow Jesus in Spirit and in truth. The mandate of the gospel being our mandate, as it is written:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”
​

George

 

[unsafe]

The Doctrine of “Determinism” — What Is It?
The Doctrine of "Determinism" - What Is It?

BY WAYNE JACKSON
“Determinism” is a term widely used in philosophical and religious circles with varying connotations, depending upon the convictions of those employing the expression. This article will focus upon two of these theories.

Atheistic Determinism

A general definition of “determinism” contends that: “[A]ll events whatsoever are to be understood as the necessary outcome of certain causes and so may be regarded as instances of laws” (Harvey, 1964, 69). In this view, the universe is a conglomerate of causes and effects. How such began is never explained. Snow melts at a certain temperature, leaves fall to the earth, and objects grow older with the passing of time. Similarly, according to atheist Bertrand Russell, human beings, as strictly material objects, yield to causes over which they have no control (1957, 48ff). Hence there is no such thing as “free will”—supposedly!

Russell elsewhere wrote: “The first dogma which I came to disbelieve was that of free will” (1952, 79). He wrote as though he volitionally changed from belief to disbelief—which, from the nature of the case, suggests “free will.” His daughter later wrote: “‘Do we have free will?’ He said ‘no,’ writing philosophically; but he acted ‘yes’ and wrote ‘yes’ when his moral passions were engaged” (Tait, 1975, 184). If one is enslaved by the determinism of natural law, why chastise believers for their “foolish” faith, and urge them to abandon such since, according to this philosophy, they haven’t the “will” to alter their conviction? Every line they write is afflicted with the seizure of inconsistency.

Follow the “no free will” position to its logical consequence, as celebrated attorney Clarence Darrow did, and one is forced to conclude there is no human responsibility for any action. In 1902 Darrow addressed the inmates of the Cook County Jail (Chicago), asserting: “There is no such thing as crime as the word is generally understood. ...The people here can no more help being here than the people outside can avoid being outside” (Weinberg, 1957, 3). What kind of lunacy is this? What sort of world would “determinism” fashion?

Calvinistic Determinism

John Calvin occasionally used the expression “free will,” though he confessed he hesitated to do so lest others conclude that man “of his own nature” might be able to “aim at good either in wish or actual pursuit” (1975, 1.265). The reformer imposed his own definition on “free will,” contending that, “none but the elect have a will inclined to good.” Again, “a right will is derived not from man himself,” but only from God (1.257). When God “converts” a person, Calvin alleged, he destroys man’s depraved will and “substitutes a good will from himself” (1.256). Thus, as one modern Calvinist argues: “Human free will is a myth” (Storms, 1984, 80-81).

Problems With Theistic Determinism

There are serious problems with the dogma of “theistic determination,” i.e., the notion that God orchestrates the choices we humans make.

First, there is the difficulty this theory creates for the biblical affirmation of the goodness of God (Romans 2:4). Jehovah is a being of absolute holiness (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8), thus he is too “pure” to tolerate evil (Habakkuk 1:13). Any dogma, therefore, that casts a reflection upon the goodness of the Creator is corrupt. One Calvinist argues: “f a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it” (Clark, 1961, 221). What conclusion necessarily follows from that statement? Whose fault is it when men do wrong? Can there even be any “wrong,” if there is no free will? How can God possibly condemn human beings for evil (e.g., murder, adultery, etc.) if he himself “determines the choices” they make? This ideology makes no sense.

Second, the denial of human free will is in conflict with multiple biblical texts of clearest import.

1. 
   
2. Christ personified Jerusalem as one who had persecuted the Lord’s prophets. He had sought to rescue them from a coming destruction, but they “would not” (Matthew 23:37). They did not will to change their lives!
3. In one of his parables, Christ pictured rebellious sinners as a “prodigal son,” yet who eventually declared: “I will arise and go to my father ... I will say ... I have sinned” (Luke 15:18). If man is void of free will, this illustration is woefully misleading.
4. In John’s Gospel Jesus declared that the OT Scriptures pointed the way to him; but, he cautioned, “you will not come to me that you may have life” (5:40). Does language have meaning?
5. He later announced that if anyone “wills” to obey his teaching, he can know whether his message is authentic or not (7:17).
6. The NT concludes with this gracious invitation: “[H]e that is thirsty, let him come; he that will, let him take of the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17).

These passages, and scores of others, powerfully refute the “no free will” heresy.

Third, beyond explicit statements of human free will, numerous texts logically imply both the ability and the urgency of man to exercise his personal will power in submitting to divine authority through obedience. Note:

1. Every command from God implies both the ability and necessity for the recipient to submit to the divine injunction. It is nonsense to suggest that the Lord commands a duty to which the subject cannot possibly yield.
2. The Bible overflows with warnings for those who neglect to “give earnest heed” to divine obedience (Hebrews 2:1ff). Why caution a person against doing what he could not do even if he so wished?
3. If man cannot exercise his will in obeying (or disobeying) the Creator, why should he ever feel a sense of guilt—as did Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:7-8), Judas and Pilate (Matthew 27:4, 24), or Paul (1 Timothy 1:13)?
4. And what shall be said of the numberless texts that contain either “curses” or “blessings” in response to human activity (cf. Deuteronomy 27:12-13), if indeed a man cannot “incline himself either to good or evil,” as Calvin alleged (op. cit., 1.229).

The Motive

Why have a few denied what is so obvious to so many, namely that man possesses the ability to choose right over wrong? Likely the answer lies in the reality that a denial of “free will” somehow “justifies” an immoral lifestyle. Atheist Aldous Huxley expressed it like this: “[T]here is no valid reason why [one] personally should not do as he wants to do” (1966, 19; emp. WJ). If a person is not responsible for his decisions, he can accelerate the reckless life at full throttle—with no pangs of conscience!

Biblical Determinism

There is a legitimate biblical “determinism,” and it stands a universe apart from the perverted ideas surveyed above. The term “determinate” translates the Greek word, horizo (8x NT), meaning “to set a boundary.” It is used in connection with Christ in the following senses

1. In the eternal counsel of God, the death of Jesus as the atonement for sin was a divine “determinate” (Acts 2:23; cf. Luke 22:22).
2. By his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was “declared” (horizo), i.e., determined to be God’s Son in a uniquely powerful way (Romans 1:4). # God’s sovereignty over the nations of the world is emphasized in that he has “determined” the duration of their supremacy and the limitation of their dominion (Acts 17:26).
3. Salvation from sin is “limited” (KJV) or “defined” (ASV; horizo – Hebrews 4:7) by a certain (symbolic) “day.” It is the “Today” when a person chooses to “hear his voice,” “hardens not” his heart, and “obeys” the conditions of salvation (as implied by “disobedience” v. 6b). The Lord has “determined” to save all who choose to do his will (Revelation 22:17).
4. God has appointed a certain day on which he will judge the world in righteousness, and he has “ordained” (horizo) that the judgment will be rendered by his Son (Acts 17:31b; cf. 10:42), the guarantee of which was the Savior’s resurrection.

Scripture never states nor implies that God has unconditionally “determined” to save some and condemn others.

 

[blackbelt1961]

 

[chansen]

*blinks*

 

[Northwind]

*blinks*

You mean you're not converted???

 

[Luce NDs]

Man, a'm'n, or just M'N as UV is as dark as the soul contained within on which the critter lies ...

There are even tomes written on the darkness of the inner core ... some refer to it as heartland ... a gravid place where light is bent and turned around for the others to reciprocate about ... tis like a reflection in the temple on atheism denied by god and thus the alternate reaction.

When the fruit fell from the tree ... many never got over it ... and were unable to gather their wits ... hard fall! One should be more fluid or at least cushy ...

Sometimes you can see reflection as a flash or red in the Daemon's aye ... regardless of parietal guidance ... then they are intuit!

Thus non sense and nothing goes on and on ... chaos retained as vanity ... of vanities !

 

[Luce NDs]

Determinism in an indeterminate world ... considering what we know for sure isn't much ...

Could cause severe blinking and blips in reality ... as reflected from Theis Ide of virtue ... conjured from a' la Deus ... that'd be oral transcribed as au riel essence whirring about in mind ... spirited thought ... when collected you may build upon nit!

Nits being bugs that approach in the night taking you to the edge ...

 

[Mendalla]

You mean you're not converted???

Old joke (possibly from Dave Broadfoot): What was Uncle Ben's rice BEFORE it converted?

 

[revjohn]

The question of God's sovereignty vs Human will requires some understanding of both since they do not appear on the same spectrum.

With respect to God's sovereignty, we need to ask the question, "If God is sovereign what are the limits of that sovereignty?" Is there anything, for example, which is ultimately not accountable to God? Scripture, in this area, is uniform in asserting that every created thing is accountable to God. Which suggests that God's sovereignty is absolute.

That absolute sovereignty does not, as far as I can tell, extend to controlling all events. If it did then we are living in a pre-determined universe and everything we post here or say elsewhere is us as actors locked into a script that God has written. That results in God being the author of evil and any resulting judgment of evil something that God orchestrates for the sole purpose of giving God something to smite and/or forgive.

Absolute sovereignty does extend to God being the judge of every action and every moment of creation. God alone gets to proclaim what is good and what is evil.

The absolute sovereignty of God can only be challenged if we discern that there are beings or actions occurring within reality which God is powerless to judge. Is there anything, apart from God, that is autonomous?

If so, I don't know what it is. So I will presume that apart from God there is nothing in all of Creation (meaning nothing which has been created) which is a law unto itself. All things answer to God.

With respect to the Human will it is Creature, that is, it belongs to all things which have been created and as such it is ultimately accountable to God. The human will is not autonomous.

What do we know about human will? We know that as with all things human it now exists in a corrupted state. Adam and Eve, corrupted by their disobedience in the garden could not do anything but pass that corruption/fallenness onto their progeny. And according to God's law, we know that the wages of sin are death and that all have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God. That includes the human will. It belongs to that which is fallen/sinful and the only wage it is capable of earning is death.

What of the mythic free-will? If we consider the time before the Fall when Adam and Eve existed in their unsullied state was the human will free at that point or was it still accountable to God? The narrative of scripture clearly points out that they, and therefore their wills, were still accountable to God. They were free to not eat of the fruit, they were not free to eat it without consequence. What freedom they had was real even though it was not absolute. They had the freedom to eat the fruit of any tree and bush save for the one. They faced the same consequences for disobedience that we do, the only wage that they could expect to receive from God for disobedience was death. We, unlike them, have not participated in an existence where we could choose to obey and not inherit the wages of disobedience.

Which results in a rather huge problem.

If God is sovereign and all of humanity has earned the wages of death how can God pay those wages and still have anyone to care for?

Enter grace. Grace is the unmerited favour of God. And only the Sovereign of all things has the capacity to pay out the wages we have earned (death) and still grant to us life. And the scriptures affirm that only the arm of God is mighty to save.

And so, to all of us who have earned the wages of sin/disobedience which is death life can only come if it is by the grace of our sovereign. Why? Well because even death itself is answerable to God. When the angel of death is sent into Egypt and all her precincts to slay the firstborn what, apart from an edict of God (made visible in lamb's blood upon doorposts and lintel) forces death to pass over? Nothing. And the power is not in the blood of those lambs unless God decrees that the blood will have the power to hold death at bay. This is how we see that death is ultimately accountable to God since it is ultimately a created thing.

Even if we ignore that the will of humanity is just as fallen as the rest of us (and some certainly to try just that) how can we assert that one good action of human will can overcome any negative action of human will? Even if we resort to some farcical values score keeping would we say that the individual with 51 good deads to their name and 49 evil ones sets the standard for what is righteous? When we discuss the righteousness of God are we suggesting that yes, God does evil but his good deeds outweigh his evil ones? When Moses or Abraham challenge God's intent to visit justice upon others do they say, "Well when you are done that make sure you do a few more good deeds to maintain your righteous standing" or "Shall not the judge of all the earth do what is right?"

The only freedom the human will is capable of exercising is rendering salvation by the action of God's grace necessary.

Our wills are not sufficiently free to declare that we are no longer sinless and we have the right to not be paid the wages of sin. To make that declaration we would have to demonstrate that there is some corner of our existence which God has no control over nor the ability to judge and if such a place does exist then I don't know where it is nor have I even seen a hint of it in scripture save for Genesis 1 and bits of Genesis 2 which speak to reality before the Fall and not afterwards.

By Grace, God intervenes in humanity getting what it rightfully deserves (death) and provides the antidote (life) to those rightfully earned wages.

It is only by the action of the Holy Spirit that our human will becomes aware of our plight (we are dead in our sin). It is only by the grace of God that the dead can be raised and scripture is very candid that none of those recorded as being dead raise themselves from death. Jesus raises Lazarus from death. Jesus does not raise himself from death. God the Son is raised from death by God the Father.

Any human profession of faith comes as a result of the Holy Spirit condemning their evil deeds and reminding them that the only wage for that is death and then God raises them graciously from death, placing within them the breath of Life (Holy Spirit) which allows them to make their declarations.

Since scripture is clear that we are dead in our sins until God takes action there is no freedom to claim Jesus and no escape from the wages our deeds rightly deserve.

I am not saved because I made a profession of faith in the nick of time. That would allow me to say that I entered heaven on my own terms. I may have been beaten badly and unable to walk but I still crawled into God's kingdom under my own steam because my will was free. As if scripture said that the spirit is willing and able to overcome the weak flesh.

Which is why I ultimately reject the notion of a free will profession of faith being necessary for salvation. No profession of faith can be made unless salvation has already been started by the same one who will bring it to completion. Which is God, in case you were wondering, who is both the author and perfecter of our faith.

To summarize then,

1) Everything is ultimately answerable to God.

2) The Fall of humanity was total, nothing remains pure and uncorrupted including the will.

3) All have sinned and the wages of sin are death.

4) Only God has power over death.

5) Our salvation is God being gracious and nothing more.

 

[chansen]

You mean you're not converted???

It's difficult enough to believe that people fall for this crap. Light falls into some random pattern, and Christians go apeshiat.

Meanwhile, kids with an education are looking on like Fox News viewers' brains are on fire. And you can't blame them for thinking that.

 

[revjohn]

Trust Fox to tell a story about something captured by a camera and they turn to an expert in something other than cameras.

Fair is fair thought and if you are discussing the picture of something religious, like an angel, why would you not call upon some Pastor? Particularly one Pastor who has claimed to have died and gone to heave who can say what angels look like.

Have to admit though it would have been awesome had this Pastor brought in John 3: 3 when he was throwing around all the other scripture.

Pretty amazing that all that prayer for him here on earth was so powerful it ripped him right out of heaven even though God thought it was time to send angels down and round him up.

Speaking candidly, if I was enjoying the first footsteps of heaven with beloved saints of God who passed before me and some clown prayed that I might be taken away from that and was successful if I ever met him I wouldn't be thanking him, I would be ensuring that he never thought about offering such a prayer for me or anyone else for the rest of his life.

And as for the poll I guess I qualify as one of the 72% who believe in angels.

I wouldn't qualify as one who believed the testimony of this particular pastor or that the camera actually managed to photograph an angel.

 

[Waterfall]

So another resurrection but without a new body?

 

[unsafe]

revjohn ---your quote ---- Which is why I ultimately reject the notion of a free will profession of faith being necessary for salvation. No profession of faith can be made unless salvation has already been started by the same one who will bring it to completion. Which is God, in case you were wondering, who is both the author and perfecter of our faith.

unsafe says ----
Really appreciate your post -----Have a question for you ------

The Bible says that Grace comes through Faith in Jesus Christ ------in your view what is God saying here -----


unsafe says
In The Old Testament
Abraham was declared Justified by Faith -----Salvation through Jesus had not come yet -----Abraham was righteous in God's eyes ----so even though Abraham didn't always obey God He then showed His Mercy to Abraham in the way that He overlooked Abraham's disobedience and saw that He was a Faithful man and believed in Him ---So He Graciously counted or considered to Him Righteousness because of his Faith in Him ------

So to me this says because of Abraham's Faith in Him ---God then graciously considers him righteous ---


Hebrew word for Justified is this

6663. tsadeq or tsadoq ►
Strong's Concordance
tsadeq or tsadoq: to be just or righteous
Original Word: צָדַק
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tsadeq or tsadoq
Phonetic Spelling: (tsaw-dak')
Short Definition: righteous


So in Romans it says this

Romans 4 (ESV)
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say?“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

unsafe posted
This word Counted in Greek is -----3049. logizomai ►
Strong's Concordance
logizomai: to reckon, to consider


unsafe says ----
So God could have justified Abraham by His Graciousness alone but He didn't --

it says God because Abraham believed God He counted to him as Righteousness -----and then in verse 5 it says -----And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

unsafe asks
What are your thoughts on this scripture below ------Did God Change the reverse order in the New Testament under the New Covenant ---where we need not to Profess our Faith to be saved ---

unsafe posted scripture
Romans 10:9 ----
Study Bible
The Word Brings Salvation
…8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…

unsafe says ----
Is this not a profession of Faith above -----seems there is a condition to be saved ---we are to say with our mouth -----and believe in our hearts and then we will be saved -----verse 10 here -----10---For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…

This is how I see it ------
God made reconciliation ---righteousness ----available to Us by His Grace which is called Salvation or Sozo ------We don't deserve Salvation ----we deserve God's wrath ----we deserve the second Death but God because of His Love for us gives us a chance to reconcile ourselves back to Him by and through His Graciousness ----which He Gives freely with no strings attached -----this reconciliation is available to all people everywhere on this Planet ------Now being available doesn't mean we automatically are reconciled and become righteous without our part to receive what God has made available to all people ----there is a condition attached to the receiving of the free gift of reconciliation which God made available through Grace -----which the scripture clearly shows ----

We see it in Romans 4 ----5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

We see it in Romans 10 ---the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…


We see faith comes from the word as is always from God -----and we are to proclaim our Faith with our mouth that Jesus is Lord ---we have to believe in our Heart that God raised Him from the Dead and with our heart we believe and are Justified and then with our mouth we confess and then we are saved ----

This says it best below -----unsafe says ---The word inbirths saving Faith in us ---We have to be in the word or be hearing the word to receive saving Faith ------read all about Faith at link below

Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- faith, faithfulness

Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).

unsafe says ---this is my opinion
This subject has many views ---and the Sovereignty of God is not an easy subject to dissect in my view ----and any one of us who thinks they have it all right and says it is this way and that I believe is fooling themselves ----Personally I believe that the word speaks for itself and there are to many Religions trying to bring their own spin on the subject and confusing the issue as we see in the OP with all the different views of different people in different Religions ----

 

[GeoFee]

At the very heart of my human being the image of God is alive and well. As is the case with every soul born into this world. This is the treasure hidden in a field. Jesus ‘selling’ all worldly good to liberate this treasure. Following Jesus we participate in his divestiture of any earthy semblance of power. Animated by the redeemed, resurrected, presence of God we share in the mission of liberation. With Jesus, as with the prophets of Israel, we well know the resistance and refusal of those lost in the thrall of the age.

As one who has freely chosen obedience to the way of God revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.

George

 

[Waterfall]

unsafe says ---this is my opinion
This subject has many views ---and the Sovereignty of God is not an easy subject to dissect in my view ----and any one of us who thinks they have it all right and says it is this way and that I believe is fooling themselves ----Personally I believe that the word speaks for itself and there are to many Religions trying to bring their own spin on the subject and confusing the issue as we see in the OP with all the different views of different people in different Religions ----

Possibly, whoever put the New testament together, didn't choose the books that would be consistent with Jesus' teaching on the subject? I doubt Jesus would be deliberately confusing us. It's one reason I am looking at the "heretical" gnostic gospels. (at least they were deemed to be). While some appear to be heretical, others not so much and were used by the early church.

 

[dreamerman]

*blinks*

Don't blink too hard or you might have missed the angel giving the person in the truck the middle finger.

 

[revjohn]

Really appreciate your post

Thank you. I appreciate the thread.

Have a question for you

Great!

The Bible says that Grace comes through Faith in Jesus Christ ------in your view what is God saying here

I presume that you are alluding to Ephesians 2: 8 which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God."

If I am right and this is the text you have in mind then I think it is important that we go back and correct your statement about what the Bible says about Grace.

The Bible does not say that Grace comes through Faith in Jesus Christ it says by grace you have been saved and that salvation is through faith and none of it is by our own doing (the faith) it is entirely the gift of God.

How can it be entirely the gift of God? Scripture explains,

looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.

If Jesus is the pioneer (other translations use author, the clear meaning is that Jesus instigates/initiates our faith) and the perfecter (makes perfect or complete our faith) what is left for us to do with respect to that faith? And if Jesus is the originator and completer of our faith how then is the faith ours?

I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the day of Jesus Christ.

Who begins that good work? Is it us or is it God? And if it is God and God will bring that work to completion then what is it that we are doing? How do we contribute?

And finally, I think it important to remind ourselves that in the alleged conflict between God's Sovereignty and human will there are two texts which very much stop the conversation in its tracks.

See, the Lord’s hand is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.

The Lord's hand is not too short to save us, meaning, God can save us and does not require our consent or participation. Something I think you would appreciate since you are fond of pointing out God is not a respecter of persons. If God did require our consent and/or participation then God very much would be a respecter of persons.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit because apart from me you can do nothing.

Apart from God, we can do nothing. We cannot believe apart from God. We have no faith apart from God. We are not convicted of our sin apart from God nor do we trust in Christ's goodness or mercy apart from God.

Faith then is a response to God. A response begun in us by God carried forward by God and completed by God. Our faith is not something we manage by ourselves and it certainly does not obligate God to us in any fashion. Our faith, no matter how feeble or strong is a gift of God. A gift God gives, a gift God nurtures a gift God brings to completion all on God's own.

If it wasn't Ephesians 2: 8 that you had in mind when you asked the question clarify and I will respond. Most likely the new response would lean just as heavily on the texts I leaned on in this response.

Some observations.

While you can find word studies about Grace and what it means you consistently fail to refuse that meaning. This tells me that you are deeply scandalized by the notion of Grace. That God would give to somebody something that they could not earn themselves. This is demonstrated over and over again by you insisting that Grace is a reward for Faith which means that our faith forces God to forgive us. That somehow on some level we have not fallen short but rather we measure up and that we are not owed the wages of death in any way and have earned life eternal of our own free will.

I don't know why that is.

I find scripture abundantly clear that I was dead in my sin and that long before I knew of Christ, my sin or could make any kind of profession in either Christ died on the cross for me, was buried in the grave for me on account of my sin, and was raised by God to new life and it is only because Christ accomplished all of that on my behalf that I have reason to believe any of it.

Even if I managed, in my own desperate state to signal for help, I would have to be way beyond arrogant to insist that God was rooted to inaction until I gave him permission to save me or that the hand that clutches the lifeline in desperation is somehow more worthy than the hand that throws the lifeline out in the first place.

It isn't that I was as good as dead in my sin. It is that I was dead in my sin and there is only one thing in all of the universe which I know has the power to save and it isn't human will.

Professions of Faith do not save us. They are the sign that God began a work in us that God will not fail to bring to completion.