God's Sovereignty And Our Freedom To Choose

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After a quick read through of this thread one thought dominates.......
We humans are obsessed with the concept of power - some body or some deity has to be in charge.
Why ?
Could it be that the realization that we have all experienced powerlessness (eg.death of a loved one) and that we, and the entire universe couldn't prevent it from happening is so devastating to our psyche that we refuse to accept the fact that there is no body or deity in charge?

If so, is God our Linus blanket?
If you have reached this conclusion it makes sense to be an atheist.

But what if, like me, you still have an inner experience of God? An experience that is so, er, powerful, it can't be denied?

The closest I've come to understanding the nature of God is the one presented by process or relational theology.

God's power isn't about "who's in charge" - that's mankind's concept of power.
God's power lies in the ability for unconditional love for humanity and all of creation.
God can't control everything that happens - a benevolent God would never allow the inhumane actions and events to occur that we see literally every day.
Any God who "chose" some folk and not others for paradise sounds more like a country club president - a God not worthy of worship.
I see God as this force for unconditional love that, due to God's inability to control in the accepted human version of what control represents, gives we human nudges to prod us into being loving and working for the common good.
Often we don't take up the challenge of those prods or lures - as we have a lifetime of past events and experiences that make it difficult for us as individuals.
But a God of unconditional love will never give up on us -and thus will present us with further opportunities to become complete.

In short, God is in relationship with us.
God needs us, as we need God.
 
PilgrimsProgress said:
After a quick read through of this thread one thought dominates.......
We humans are obsessed with the concept of power - some body or some deity has to be in charge.
Why ?
Could it be that the realization that we have all experienced powerlessness (eg.death of a loved one) and that we, and the entire universe couldn't prevent it from happening is so devastating to our psyche that we refuse to accept the fact that there is no body or deity in charge?

If so, is God our Linus blanket?
If you have reached this conclusion it makes sense to be an atheist.

But what if, like me, you still have an inner experience of God? An experience that is so, er, powerful, it can't be denied?

The closest I've come to understanding the nature of God is the one presented by process or relational theology.

God's power isn't about "who's in charge" - that's mankind's concept of power.
God's power lies in the ability for unconditional love for humanity and all of creation.
God can't control everything that happens - a benevolent God would never allow the inhumane actions and events to occur that we see literally every day.
Any God who "chose" some folk and not others for paradise sounds more like a country club president - a God not worthy of worship.
I see God as this force for unconditional love that, due to God's inability to control in the accepted human version of what control represents, gives we human nudges to prod us into being loving and working for the common good.
Often we don't take up the challenge of those prods or lures - as we have a lifetime of past events and experiences that make it difficult for us as individuals.
But a God of unconditional love will never give up on us -and thus will present us with further opportunities to become complete.

In short, God is in relationship with us.
God needs us, as we need God.
Click to expand...

(#_#)
 
revjohn said:
Apologies for my part in that.



That is the question in a nutshell.



Ultimately it boils down to agency with respect to salvation.

Ok, but I'm not looking at it through salvation so to speak. When I think about free will - I think about will the decision I make today affect me tomorrow etc... or does it matter as the decision has already been made and I am just playing it out. Make sense?
Click to expand...
 
Jobam said:
Most of this is over my head. I have a few basic questions which I think tie directly into the thread. Do we have free will and/or are our lives predestined? What is the different between the two?
Click to expand...

Here’s another explanation to compare to revjohn’s totally unbiased opinion.


If my son during summer vacation, is doing nothing on the couch and I storm in the room and say, “Get your butt off the couch, I’m going fishing and so are you.”

Or if I walk in and say, “Hey Buddy, I’m going fishing, bus leaves in 30 minutes.”

I can force him to go fishing, I can invite him to go fishing.

Either way, whether he goes or not, whether I force him or not. I am still the father.

What does the bible reveal about the father?

Why does Jesus stand at the door and knock?
 
If we are within the belief system of all that is (everything that is God) is it possible to get beyond that?

Or does it depend upon how word is understood in a world that disbelieves understanding in favour of ... insane passions? Could be irrational ...

Then in a world of pure passions is there room for reason that could corrupt the passionate?

Don't cha' start thinking now ...
 
Jobam said:
Ok, but I'm not looking at it through salvation so to speak. When I think about free will - I think about will the decision I make today affect me tomorrow etc... or does it matter as the decision has already been made and I am just playing it out. Make sense?
Click to expand...

In this context you aren't discussing free will and predestination you are discussing the limits of human will and predeterminism.

Predeterminism argues that God has programmed all of Creation and we are bits of code within the program. Everything runs as it ought to when it ought to.

Even if human will is not free to chose what is good it has the ability to chose between a variety of evil choices.

So the question boils down to whether I really wanted stir-fry for dinner tonight or whether I had no choice but to have stir-fry for dinner tonight.
 
Waterfall said:
Can someone lose their salvation? What happens when even the elect are fooled?
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In traditional TULIP Calvinism, you cannot lose your salvation. That's the P, Persistence of Saints. God chose the Elect before the beginning, so how could anything the Elect do change that? How can you lose it if you didn't merit it in the first place?

Universalism would also maintain that salvation cannot be lost, but for different reasons. Since all are ultimately saved, there is no way to "lose" salvation.

However, if you believe in salvation based on faith, then the question of what happens if you lose your faith becomes an issue.
 
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Waterfall ----your quote ----- Can someone lose their salvation?

No ---anyone who is truly saved is saved forever ------ Many think they are saved but really they are not -----your either saved or your not --there is no inbetween --
 
I (and many other Christians I might add) feel that one can lose their salvation if they persist in unrepentant sin.

"If they have ·fallen away [committed apostasy], it is impossible to ·bring them back to a changed life again [L renew them again to repentance], because they are nailing the Son of God to a cross again and are ·shaming him in front of others [making a public disgrace/exhibition of him]." - Hebrews 6:6 (EXB).
 
revjohn said:
In this context you aren't discussing free will and predestination you are discussing the limits of human will and predeterminism.

Predeterminism argues that God has programmed all of Creation and we are bits of code within the program. Everything runs as it ought to when it ought to.

Even if human will is not free to chose what is good it has the ability to chose between a variety of evil choices.

So the question boils down to whether I really wanted stir-fry for dinner tonight or whether I had no choice but to have stir-fry for dinner tonight.
Click to expand...

So when Christ said to Peter that he was going to deny him three times, he had no choice......stir-fry it is.
 
Jobam said:
So when Christ said to Peter that he was going to deny him three times, he had no choice......stir-fry it is.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Perhaps it wasn't really fated to happen, just that Christ knew Peter extremely well, better that Peter himself, and made a prediction based on that knowledge. There's nothing there in the testament that says it had to happen, only that it did and Peter realized that he had done exactly what Christ said he would.
 
Mendalla said:
Not necessarily. Perhaps it wasn't really fated to happen, just that Christ knew Peter extremely well, better that Peter himself, and made a prediction based on that knowledge. There's nothing there in the testament that says it had to happen, only that it did and Peter realized that he had done exactly what Christ said he would.
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The odds of getting the number of times are pretty slim.

When the King had the dream and Joseph interpreted the 21 years or so... that was a guess?
 
Mendalla said:
In traditional TULIP Calvinism, you cannot lose your salvation. That's the P, Persistence of Saints. God chose the Elect before the beginning, so how could anything the Elect do change that? How can you lose it if you didn't merit it in the first place?

Universalism would also maintain that salvation cannot be lost, but for different reasons. Since all are ultimately saved, there is no way to "lose" salvation.
Click to expand...

Which would make sense as our life was created that it would be impossible for anyone to "be good" , even the elect.
 
Jobam said:
The odds of getting the number of times are pretty slim.

When the King had the dream and Joseph interpreted the 21 years or so... that was a guess?
Click to expand...

Probably not as slim as you think. If you understand human psychology a bit you likely could make a fairly accurate prediction (and one thinks the Son of God would). And, really, if Jesus got it wrong, the story wouldn't have been told. :devil:

As for the dream thing, we're likely moving into the realm of myth there, anyway.

In the end, even the story of Peter is likely more myth than reality. It makes a point in the story whether it is literally true or not. And, no, the point is not that Jesus could foretell the future. It's about Peter's denial, not Jesus' prediction of it.
 
Jobam said:
So when Christ said to Peter that he was going to deny him three times, he had no choice......stir-fry it is.
Click to expand...

Peter was not free to make the right choice. For a number of reasons. First and foremost perfect live drives out all fear and Peter still managed to be fearful.

Jesus, knowing Peter far better than you or I could ever hope to understood Peter's motivations very, very well.

And it is three times before the cock crows. Which may speak more to Peter's character defect than any gospel narrative thought was warranted.

Peter was capable of doing far worse than deny.

Still rather comfortably ironic that brave Peter often had feet of clay.
 
revjohn said:
Peter was not free to make the right choice. For a number of reasons. First and foremost perfect live drives out all fear and Peter still managed to be fearful.

Jesus, knowing Peter far better than you or I could ever hope to understood Peter's motivations very, very well.

And it is three times before the cock crows. Which may speak more to Peter's character defect than any gospel narrative thought was warranted.

Peter was capable of doing far worse than deny.

Still rather comfortably ironic that brave Peter often had feet of clay.
Click to expand...
Another question: You have often said that you feel you are one of God's elect....how do you know?
 
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Waterfall said:
Another question: You have often said that you feel you are one of God's elect....how do you know?
Click to expand...

2 Peter 2: 10.

If I am called, and all Christians are called, then I have also been elected.

If I am confident I have been called I am certain that I have been elected.

Called to what? Somedays I wonder. Still, wondering about the what doesn't mean I doubt that I have been called.

And that is not specific to a call to ministry which is a call within a call.

What about those who are uncertain?

Doubt doesn't disqualify the call so much as it interferes with the response.

Classically Calvinism contrasts the freedom of those who are called with the stiff-necks if those who are not.

Then it becomes a matter of knowing trees by their fruit.
 
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