God's Sovereignty And Our Freedom To Choose

[Waterfall]

I wonder why God would create some people just to watch them be destroyed?

 

[unsafe]

God didn't create some to be destroyed -----that is evident in this scripture ------Mankind is eternally destroying themselves by refusing to receive the only person who can keep them from being destroyed ------Jesus is the way to recover ourselves from being destroyed eternally -----Mankind screwed up in the beginning not God --


1 Timothy 2 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
2 First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people, 2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior. 4 He wants all people to be saved and to learn the truth. 5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and humans—a human, Christ Jesus. 6 He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins.


Anyone who says God chooses to have some of His Creation destroyed contradicts what scripture says ------

 

[Delightful Life]

I wonder why God would create some people just to watch them be destroyed?

i still wonder that one
how many Adams and Eves did g_d create b4 She decided on the "right" ones?
And what of Lillith? The one who stood up to Adam's whining?
also makes me think if we ever make a human like AGI then we have 2 b very careful with the ethics of it, like how many iterations did it take (meaning: how many sentients did we kill before we got the "right" one *shudder*)

 

[Jae]

God didn't create some to be destroyed -----that is evident in this scripture ------Mankind is eternally destroying themselves by refusing to receive the only person who can keep them from being destroyed ------Jesus is the way to recover ourselves from being destroyed eternally -----Mankind screwed up in the beginning not God --


1 Timothy 2 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
2 First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people, 2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior. 4 He wants all people to be saved and to learn the truth. 5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and humans—a human, Christ Jesus. 6 He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins.


Anyone who says God chooses to have some of His Creation destroyed contradicts what scripture says ------

Hmm... There is Romans 9 to reflect on, which speaks on God's Sovereign choice.

 

[Northwind]

If so, is God our Linus blanket?
If you have reached this conclusion it makes sense to be an atheist.

I love this image. I've often thought that many people see God as a Santa Claus. That makes us perpetually immature.

God's power isn't about "who's in charge" - that's mankind's concept of power.

Another good one.

Thanks so much for all your thoughts Pilgrim.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

I love this image. I've often thought that many people see God as a Santa Claus. That makes us perpetually immature.



Another good one.

Thanks so much for all your thoughts Pilgrim.

And thanks so much for your compliment. (I'm fighting the black dog at the moment -so even feeling valued across the oceans gives me a warm glow.)

 

[Luce NDs]

Not necessarily. Perhaps it wasn't really fated to happen, just that Christ knew Peter extremely well, better that Peter himself, and made a prediction based on that knowledge. There's nothing there in the testament that says it had to happen, only that it did and Peter realized that he had done exactly what Christ said he would.

Jesus was the internal light within that dark hang-up in the temple ... that's Saint Peter's portion or appearing is isn't and thus stood up and took off ... that's how it went! The physical portion saint virtue ... because the physical superficial thingy is for success over the alternate ... thus they don't give ... just take to look at Ad*onus from the other tensor ...

Much de 'seminal conjuring may be pre requisite as prescient ... many can't do this until after the Nous fact ... thus the latter Deis ain't in their fold ...

 

[Luce NDs]

The odds of getting the number of times are pretty slim.

When the King had the dream and Joseph interpreted the 21 years or so... that was a guess?

21 ans ... 3(7's) ... perfect #'s ... when people leave the second decade ... the decade*nce of adolescence? Some of the young spirit carries through to perhaps 35 or even 45 ... and then crisis!

Tis a chaos of emotional-intellectual vanities ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Which would make sense as our life was created that it would be impossible for anyone to "be good" , even the elect.

We live in a poor element for perfection to exist ... thus it doesn't and becomes part of the abstract zone --- the Zohar!

Once right into the non existent zone ... one may be carried off if called to be part of the wisdom fraction ... it is not earthy as too rational for the gravid domain ... thus out of id ... Feud, Jung, Lord Rutherford and Einstein appeared to be part of that cluster ... a loving cup of wisdom as a lost grail? Hoo Dah thun quiET ... the silence upstanding as sapiens ... and trees drip?

 

[revjohn]

I wonder why God would create some people just to watch them be destroyed?

This presumes much.

For starters it presumes that God's pupose for any individual is either their redemption or their destruction.

This premise is not born out in the act of Creation where God declares all to be very good.

Included in the act of Creation was the decree that each reproduce according to their kind.

Adam and Eve, so the story goes, suffer from the Fall before they can reproduce. They are, at that point, dead. All they can reproduce are equally dead individuals.

Corrupted parents produce corrupted off-spring since they reproduce each according to their kind.

So, all of humanity is lost. All have sinned and all have fallen short of glory of God. If God does not redeem any none will be saved.

God did not create Adam and Eve to fall. That is their own doing. And the rest of humanity suffers for their disobedience. Even so, it isn't like we don't have enough screw-ups of our own weighed in the balance against us.

"But," you may ask, "How could God elect to save some before the Creation of the heavens and the earth and not save others?"

Which is a really good question that scripture doesn't unpack much except to say that God saves those whom God chooses to save.

God is under no obligation to save any. It is our mess.

God offers grace to some while others get justice. Neither are loveless options.

And since the election of individuals happens on the choice of God alone some of those who are elect come from lines of individuals who aren't elected to salvation.

Why?

God apparently does not need all and can accomplish his purpose for creating humanity without needing to save all humanity.

That God foresaw the Fall of all does not make God the architect of any particular fall.

That God, for whatever reason, choses to save any does not obligate God to save all. Humanity will argue that this proves God is not good while it ignores the many ways humanity clearly does not choose to do what is right for others and still thinks very highly of itself.

 

[Waterfall]

This presumes much.

For starters it presumes that God's pupose for any individual is either their redemption or their destruction.

This premise is not born out in the act of Creation where God declares all to be very good.

Included in the act of Creation was the decree that each reproduce according to their kind.

Adam and Eve, so the story goes, suffer from the Fall before they can reproduce. They are, at that point, dead. All they can reproduce are equally dead individuals.

Corrupted parents produce corrupted off-spring since they reproduce each according to their kind.

So, all of humanity is lost. All have sinned and all have fallen short of glory of God. If God does not redeem any none will be saved.

God did not create Adam and Eve to fall. That is their own doing. And the rest of humanity suffers for their disobedience. Even so, it isn't like we don't have enough screw-ups of our own weighed in the balance against us.

"But," you may ask, "How could God elect to save some before the Creation of the heavens and the earth and not save others?"

Which is a really good question that scripture doesn't unpack much except to say that God saves those whom God chooses to save.

God is under no obligation to save any. It is our mess.

God offers grace to some while others get justice. Neither are loveless options.

And since the election of individuals happens on the choice of God alone some of those who are elect come from lines of individuals who aren't elected to salvation.

Why?

God apparently does not need all and can accomplish his purpose for creating humanity without needing to save all humanity.

That God foresaw the Fall of all does not make God the architect of any particular fall.

That God, for whatever reason, choses to save any does not obligate God to save all. Humanity will argue that this proves God is not good while it ignores the many ways humanity clearly does not choose to do what is right for others and still thinks very highly of itself.

Is this the only explanation, because it doesn't sit well with me. Now before you mention that God doesn't exist to make me feel less comfortable......I realize we have to atone for doing wrong against ourselves and others and God forgives.....but all sin, even the elect and Jesus was born from a mortal women (who sinned).....how can it be right to say some are elect and then create others who are not the elect when the only thing separating them is that they were chosen prior to being created? It does make God appear evil.......to purposely lead us into temptation and putting the blame on humans when God placed a tree in the garden that could lead us into temptation from disobedience when He Himself says only He is good seems contradictory.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

So God saves those whom God chooses to save AND God wants all people to be saved.
So God does not get what he wants. But he has set place a clearly defined WAY. That is believe in Jesus Christ and God has said that those are the ones he has chosen.

 

[Waterfall]

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

So God saves those whom God chooses to save AND God wants all people to be saved.
So God does not get what he wants. But he has set place a clearly defined WAY. That is believe in Jesus Christ and God has said that those are the ones he has chosen.

Other religions believe in God.....is Jesus not God according to you or are other religions excluded from being saved?

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

I’m a Christian. Any religion whose god rejects Jesus is not God.

 

[Northwind]

I’m a Christian. Any religion whose god rejects Jesus is not God.

So what happens to those who are born into another religion that doesn't see Jesus as the Messiah? Are they doomed, or is there more than one god?

 

[chansen]

I’m a Christian. Any religion whose god rejects Jesus is not God.

So people who reject Jesus on the back of no evidence whatsoever and a sales force that makes used car salesmen look trustworthy and competent, are not saved?

What a stupid faith.

 

[GordW]

I’m a Christian. Any religion whose god rejects Jesus is not God.

SO the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, known to our Jewish neighbours for centuries, the God known by Jesus of Nazareth and his closest friends, is not God? Or is God only properly understood by people who follow the Christian understanding and not by those who continue to follow a Judaic understanding?

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

So what happens to those who are born into another religion that doesn't see Jesus as the Messiah? Are they doomed, or is there more than one god?

I guess the same thing that happens to those who hear about Jesus and still reject him. The same thing that happens to those who judge God by their own standards.

The same thing that happens to false followers who think it is wrong to go out and share the good news. Because only by hearing the good news will they ever be saved.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

So people who reject Jesus on the back of no evidence whatsoever and a sales force that makes used car salesmen look trustworthy and competent, are not saved?

What a stupid faith.

That is exactly how I feel about your faith.

 

[chansen]

And this is all you have - to try to make my position look somehow similar and similarly baseless as your own. But I don't go around saying anyone is saved from anything. I don't insist my imaginary friend has cursed anyone, or that not following the same path as I follow will lead to anything different than my own fate.

I don't pretend to know the answers. You do. What I will say, is that your claims are empty and your faith is stupid. We need more people saying this out loud, and not simply playing nice and hoping not to offend the sort of people who insist other people will suffer. As soon as you do that, you need to come up with some evidence or be laughed off the planet with your fellow idiots.