TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?
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Ritafee
Is Being Human
What government does not lean authoritarian?
You have a point. I was being careful not to say fascist. The difference is whether it’s run “by the people (all the people), for the people (all the people)” or not. People engaged in civic affairs with everyone’s well being in mind, is different from electing dictators and oligarchs who control everyone “beneath” them for their own advantage.
Conservatives seem to favour rich businessmen being in charge (oligarchs), and strongmen who claim to like small government but they don’t seem to mind investing in big military and huge wealthy companies, mercenaries, arms dealers...putting that before investments in healthcare, schools, social programs...still believing, conveniently for the wealthy folks but not so much for everyone else...in “trickle down” economics. Whatever has trickled down on the commoners, it hasn’t been particularly pleasant. Golden showers.
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Ritafee
Is Being Human
Does the individual really have any rights outside of those granted to him by government?
If so, what are they?
If the fundamental rights of the individual do not come from government, where do they come from?
The fact that some persons may actually prefer the combination of bondage and security to the combination of freedom and responsibility proves only that men have different scales of values.
Positive proof of the validity of the concept of inherent and individual rights above and beyond government is offered by the fact that people do rebel against authority when they, individually, disagree with the authority.
If a majority vote really could determine right from wrong, we could easily solve all the religious problems now before us—by having a national election to determine which particular religion we should all be compelled to follow.
The "prohibition amendment" did not make the drinking of whiskey immoral; it merely made it illegal. Nor did the repeal of that amendment make the drinking of whiskey moral; it merely made it legal again. The use of alcohol is a moral and medical and economic question, and thus its rightness or wrongness can never be determined by the vote of the majority.
But the confusion on this issue is so great today that we need only make a thing legal to give it moral standing among the vast majority of the people. And you, yourself, are probably included in that majority. If you doubt it, try this test on yourself: How do you determine a right action by government from a wrong action by government? Can you, without using the concept of majority vote, write out an answer that satisfies you?
Personally, I am convinced that the solution is to be found in the original American concept that all rights begin and end with individuals; that every person has an inherent right to his life, liberty, and property; that he may exercise his rights fully, so long as he does not violate the equal rights of others; that we may delegate the defense of these rights to our government; that any action that is illegitimate for persons is automatically illegitimate for government; and that we should never regard government as any more sacred than any other useful organization that provides us with specialized services we want at prices we are willing to pay.
But, of course, if the principle is wrong—that is, if there are no individual rights outside of governmental grants—then we have no problems at all. For then there is no need for us, as individuals, to think and to make hard decisions. If the ancient concept of government is the correct one, then we need only to remain passive, to obey, and to worship—for under that old-but still-popular idea, the source of governmental authority is above and beyond the individual person, and thus there is nothing you and I can do about it.
fee.org
If so, what are they?
If the fundamental rights of the individual do not come from government, where do they come from?
The fact that some persons may actually prefer the combination of bondage and security to the combination of freedom and responsibility proves only that men have different scales of values.
Positive proof of the validity of the concept of inherent and individual rights above and beyond government is offered by the fact that people do rebel against authority when they, individually, disagree with the authority.
If a majority vote really could determine right from wrong, we could easily solve all the religious problems now before us—by having a national election to determine which particular religion we should all be compelled to follow.
The "prohibition amendment" did not make the drinking of whiskey immoral; it merely made it illegal. Nor did the repeal of that amendment make the drinking of whiskey moral; it merely made it legal again. The use of alcohol is a moral and medical and economic question, and thus its rightness or wrongness can never be determined by the vote of the majority.
But the confusion on this issue is so great today that we need only make a thing legal to give it moral standing among the vast majority of the people. And you, yourself, are probably included in that majority. If you doubt it, try this test on yourself: How do you determine a right action by government from a wrong action by government? Can you, without using the concept of majority vote, write out an answer that satisfies you?
Personally, I am convinced that the solution is to be found in the original American concept that all rights begin and end with individuals; that every person has an inherent right to his life, liberty, and property; that he may exercise his rights fully, so long as he does not violate the equal rights of others; that we may delegate the defense of these rights to our government; that any action that is illegitimate for persons is automatically illegitimate for government; and that we should never regard government as any more sacred than any other useful organization that provides us with specialized services we want at prices we are willing to pay.
But, of course, if the principle is wrong—that is, if there are no individual rights outside of governmental grants—then we have no problems at all. For then there is no need for us, as individuals, to think and to make hard decisions. If the ancient concept of government is the correct one, then we need only to remain passive, to obey, and to worship—for under that old-but still-popular idea, the source of governmental authority is above and beyond the individual person, and thus there is nothing you and I can do about it.
Sources of Governmental Authority
Where does government get its authority to do so many things that no person or group has a right to do?
fee.org
Ritafee
Is Being Human
Before he ran for president a friend asked Obama to join him at the Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles, saying it might cheer him up to be surrounded by like minded and energetic politicos. Upon arriving in California and attempting to rent a car, his credit card was declined.
Fast forward to his life post-presidency after an 8-year crime spree in the White House and he’s living the lifestyle of a billionaire jet-setter.
The Obamas are reportedly purchasing a 29-acre, 7,000 square foot $14.85 million mansion in Martha’s Vineyard.
Government for the people ... not so much. By the people ... In Deed!
Fast forward to his life post-presidency after an 8-year crime spree in the White House and he’s living the lifestyle of a billionaire jet-setter.
The Obamas are reportedly purchasing a 29-acre, 7,000 square foot $14.85 million mansion in Martha’s Vineyard.
Government for the people ... not so much. By the people ... In Deed!
A right action by government is one that is inclusive of and beneficial for the most people and the least harmful and exclusionary to as few as possible.
Nope. He’s not as great as he campaigned. Agreed. He’s still way better than Trump.
Who cares? If Bernie gets in the Obamas and Clintons will have the crap taxed out of them. At least that’s a bit of justice for everything you can’t stand about them.
@Northwind your mention of “grassroots conservatism” reminded me of the neo-fascism in Italy now...there, and around Europe, is where ideas like “both sides need to be considered” and “free speech” movements to curtail anti-fascism really incubate. And it’s absolutely a significant threat which is coming from the right, and only the right. And it has seeped into our political discourse and become normalized. It is happening on the right here as well...the conservative candidate here has entertained far right ideas and racist/ white nationalist groups...but he’s relatively mild mannered about it compared to other political figures...because this is Canada...but it’s the same ugly movement. If conservatives vote for Scheer (or Bernier who is pretty extreme) they are complicit with this ugly far right movement that is creeping across the planet right now. It was not obvious when Harper was in that this was brewing and people from centre right to left of the spectrum voted Harper out because he was moving uncomfortably further to the right (it’s like people forgot that)...but it was not obvious that it was, or if it was part of a bigger picture, and just what that picture was. Now it’s totally clear that the far right is a threat that has spread everywhere and you (and others) think “both sides” share the blame for the polarization right now...that’s not true. It couldn’t be more obvious that the spread of far right fascism is what’s going on now, seeping into politics and culture (and minds via a social media offensive, watch “the Great Hack” about the psy-ops they’ve used) ...and it entered via conservative parties. To hold noses and vote conservative anyway, is a racist act today... And it bothers and saddens me deeply that people I care about will vote conservative (or not vote because they can’t bear voting for a “liberal”, and throw votes away to conservatives) and help this fascism spread. I don’t know what else to say. Just...I hope they don’t vote conservative.
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It’s the same thing that happened in the US in 2016, happening here...
This person is promoting right wing politicians across Canada...and movements like Ontario Proud and Canada Proud, for Ford and Scheer. Which, I can’t help but wonder if that came from or was inspired by the Proud Boys...which is a far right group started by Gavin McInnis but I believe is now considered a hate group in the US.
www.nationalobserver.com
This person is promoting right wing politicians across Canada...and movements like Ontario Proud and Canada Proud, for Ford and Scheer. Which, I can’t help but wonder if that came from or was inspired by the Proud Boys...which is a far right group started by Gavin McInnis but I believe is now considered a hate group in the US.
He used to work for a site that promoted racists — now he edits a Canadian news outlet
The Post Millennial is a rising star in Canada’s conservative media scene. But the outlet’s willingness to hire someone with a background working for sites that promoted hate is “disturbing,” said Barbara Perry, director of the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism at Ontario Tech University.
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Remember Lindsay Shephard, the young woman at the centre of a controversy at, I think it was the University of Waterloo, maybe U of T? She recorded a meeting where she was reprimanded by the dean for allegedly promoting Jordan Peterson...and she said (paraphrasing) she was just presenting different ideas for students to think about and discuss and that her free speech was being imposed on...she demanded an apology, and sued, and then that further fuelled the whole “conservative voices in academia are being stifled by neomarxistfeministpostmodernists”, and JP sprung to her defence and also sued because he felt triggered by her predicament - and she became a right wing celebrity for a bit - a “victim” of the looney left. God, it seems like eons ago...and yet, it also seems like just yesterday. Well, she’s now together, in a relationship, with this guy who’s peddling far right stories on right wing media and she herself has written far right racist sentiments on the same news site:
( In April, Dzsurdzsa had a baby with his fiancée, Lindsay Shepherd, who is a self-styled “free-speech activist” who has criticized left-leaning activists for suggesting there's no difference between white nationalists and white supremacists. Shepherd, who also writes columns for the Post Millennial, has expressed concerns about how white people will be treated "when we are the minority.")
Excerpt above is from the same story:
www.nationalobserver.com
I don’t think there is a legitimate “both sides” argument...i think there’s been a vigorous far right propaganda offensive, that has created this shitstorm. Given what has happened around the world, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable assumption.
( In April, Dzsurdzsa had a baby with his fiancée, Lindsay Shepherd, who is a self-styled “free-speech activist” who has criticized left-leaning activists for suggesting there's no difference between white nationalists and white supremacists. Shepherd, who also writes columns for the Post Millennial, has expressed concerns about how white people will be treated "when we are the minority.")
Excerpt above is from the same story:
He used to work for a site that promoted racists — now he edits a Canadian news outlet
The Post Millennial is a rising star in Canada’s conservative media scene. But the outlet’s willingness to hire someone with a background working for sites that promoted hate is “disturbing,” said Barbara Perry, director of the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism at Ontario Tech University.
I don’t think there is a legitimate “both sides” argument...i think there’s been a vigorous far right propaganda offensive, that has created this shitstorm. Given what has happened around the world, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable assumption.
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Chaos, chaos, all is chaos --- Fred Nietzsche! Is that like irrational love and anarchy ... passions need some type of restriction and responsibility by conscience!
The con man called the observer (vis a vis; visionary) appears to work in the dark and shimmering like Elvis ... and hard working fundamentalists hate dancing .. when the pions should be harder working so they won't think differently. With emotional intellect they could integrate!
That appears to be a pariah! Like that funny lobe extending off the bottom of the greater gonad called the brain!
Theory may be that a dark power assigned us to like in chaos for a while ... for practical purpose before we regress into the point called psyche ... the boson particle? By Gods that's not what we were indoctrinated with for some hidden agenda in the opposition ... and also they appeared to have mist as much as I see it clouded.
Given cause, reason and consequence ... without consequence are we not yet to the third part coming forth? Moses in recessive analysis ... double regression as two negatives make "what!" Note it is strangely punctuated ... like JudE ... dude gone for some time ... Dunesin? Thus four winds of the apocalypse ... awakening to aliens? Could be night angels! A veiled with silvery linings ... something to look up at!
Life appears sinful ... and contrary to peace ... like an eruption in a folded space ... time winkles? It just seems there must be more to this that the fasci presented by alternate masques ... but then what would I know as bean quite out of it according to some tyrants that lie about anything because flat out is easier than truth ... a virtual unknown? Is that shameful and providing a natural guilt syndrome? I often feel so sick over life as it is ... insanity of just rabi dholes ... and a lot of MS pelt stuff to amuse a greater mind ... intelligence may be out there ... considering what emotives are subtly buried! Hang fire ...
The con man called the observer (vis a vis; visionary) appears to work in the dark and shimmering like Elvis ... and hard working fundamentalists hate dancing .. when the pions should be harder working so they won't think differently. With emotional intellect they could integrate!
That appears to be a pariah! Like that funny lobe extending off the bottom of the greater gonad called the brain!
Theory may be that a dark power assigned us to like in chaos for a while ... for practical purpose before we regress into the point called psyche ... the boson particle? By Gods that's not what we were indoctrinated with for some hidden agenda in the opposition ... and also they appeared to have mist as much as I see it clouded.
Given cause, reason and consequence ... without consequence are we not yet to the third part coming forth? Moses in recessive analysis ... double regression as two negatives make "what!" Note it is strangely punctuated ... like JudE ... dude gone for some time ... Dunesin? Thus four winds of the apocalypse ... awakening to aliens? Could be night angels! A veiled with silvery linings ... something to look up at!
Life appears sinful ... and contrary to peace ... like an eruption in a folded space ... time winkles? It just seems there must be more to this that the fasci presented by alternate masques ... but then what would I know as bean quite out of it according to some tyrants that lie about anything because flat out is easier than truth ... a virtual unknown? Is that shameful and providing a natural guilt syndrome? I often feel so sick over life as it is ... insanity of just rabi dholes ... and a lot of MS pelt stuff to amuse a greater mind ... intelligence may be out there ... considering what emotives are subtly buried! Hang fire ...
Lastpointe
Well-Known Member
Trudeau!
He runs the country through his PMO. He is arrogant. Wants what he wants. Refuses to take no for an answer.
Sounds remarkably like our big pompiste orange giant south of us
Do tyrants run in flocks that tend to radical friends ... consider attributes of some nations ... we should round them up spherically speaking as a global sense of underlings ... purely the deble they say ... as a great bore!
Thus the earth swalls us up ... listen carefully and you can hear the rumbles and chimers ...
Thus the earth swalls us up ... listen carefully and you can hear the rumbles and chimers ...
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Focus on fiscal responsibility (eg. managing deficits and debts properly) is the main one for me. I call myself a fiscal conservative but a social progressive. To be frank, though, I'm not seeing it from any parties at the moment, though Green talks a good line on that front. Each party may have different ways of frittering away our money, but they are all doing it.
Efficiency teles ... teles being and old word for waste ... and boy are political/business/pious types good at the status quo ... alas it is said it is best if nothing alters!
After decades, if not centuries of overwhelming lies and other bleeding of the social orders (in particularly the less significant portions) could the impressed really change the steerage?
Thus the vessel is heading down the great holei space ... making rips and ripples when hitting bottom! Those with resilience be ready for the bounce! It may be an extensive echo/ego/other unknown! So much strange passions on this side of the rainbow ... while everything cranks as sloe djinn out there ... retaining of the al'kohl out there? Dark highs as relatively unseen by the truly emotional leaders w/o clues ...
In the clockwork orange ... rare cases in the rabi'dhole as industrial welfare? And deeper ewe go as we abuse limited resources ... Yugos as sheepish! Little do we know of great items ... radical absence really ...
Thus the vessel is heading down the great holei space ... making rips and ripples when hitting bottom! Those with resilience be ready for the bounce! It may be an extensive echo/ego/other unknown! So much strange passions on this side of the rainbow ... while everything cranks as sloe djinn out there ... retaining of the al'kohl out there? Dark highs as relatively unseen by the truly emotional leaders w/o clues ...
In the clockwork orange ... rare cases in the rabi'dhole as industrial welfare? And deeper ewe go as we abuse limited resources ... Yugos as sheepish! Little do we know of great items ... radical absence really ...
Remember .. with power all things can be manipulated until the bottom lions fall out ... even the Gods may fail then as they cannot exist without something supporting the upper tiers beyond nothing ... the stuff of core consumption if that happens to eat at you ...
Reconsider hollow spheres ... the bleeding of the mire earth? It appears to be heating up ... before the bog blo' ... cumulative or accrued small stuff? Thus denial of public gatherings ... and isolation of individual thinking ... everything goes down ... even false God's representations! These may be stoically the end post ... break in the fencing ... picture the rapier ... may even by the one with the scyther ... sighing about another human failure at meaning!
Unreasonable ...
Reconsider hollow spheres ... the bleeding of the mire earth? It appears to be heating up ... before the bog blo' ... cumulative or accrued small stuff? Thus denial of public gatherings ... and isolation of individual thinking ... everything goes down ... even false God's representations! These may be stoically the end post ... break in the fencing ... picture the rapier ... may even by the one with the scyther ... sighing about another human failure at meaning!
Unreasonable ...
Northwind
Stationary nomad.
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- She/Her/Her
@Kimmio Laughterlove you've responded to my comments with a blast of "educative" posts about history and the dangers of right-wing politics. Would you please explain what made you think I need this education. Please explain succinctly.
Perhaps I need to clarify. I am alarmed at the polarization of our world today. We are in our camps or tribes and rarely speak to the "other side". We demonize the other side, and blame all the evils of the world on them. Both sides do that. It is not healthy. This type of polarization is very dangerous and creates space for the types of things you warn about.
I've been in discussions with people online who call themselves conservative and I have been subjected to a variation of the communication I see here. Most notably, assumptions have been made about my beliefs based on minimal information. Of course the assumptions were wrong. I've been called stupid, emotional and a snowflake. All these tactics only serve to shut down discussion. It's sad really. The people with whom I've interacted only want what's best and I believe we could actually agree on a few things if we could discuss. I did have one notable discussion with someone about having a gun for protection where we each could understand the other's perspective, and could respect it.
There are reasonable people on both sides. There are people who hold bizarre views on both sides. The extreme of each side is dangerous. Both sides have ways of shutting down discourse which is dangerous.
Let me remind you that I started (many posts ago) by saying there are reasonable people on the conservative "side" who are just as alarmed about the way things are heading. We need to work together with those people and to hear their views. This is even when we disagree. Perhaps it is even more important to have discourse when we disagree.
Racism does seem to be increasing. It is increasing because of the fear of "The Other". The only way to deal with this fear is to face it.
Perhaps I need to clarify. I am alarmed at the polarization of our world today. We are in our camps or tribes and rarely speak to the "other side". We demonize the other side, and blame all the evils of the world on them. Both sides do that. It is not healthy. This type of polarization is very dangerous and creates space for the types of things you warn about.
I've been in discussions with people online who call themselves conservative and I have been subjected to a variation of the communication I see here. Most notably, assumptions have been made about my beliefs based on minimal information. Of course the assumptions were wrong. I've been called stupid, emotional and a snowflake. All these tactics only serve to shut down discussion. It's sad really. The people with whom I've interacted only want what's best and I believe we could actually agree on a few things if we could discuss. I did have one notable discussion with someone about having a gun for protection where we each could understand the other's perspective, and could respect it.
There are reasonable people on both sides. There are people who hold bizarre views on both sides. The extreme of each side is dangerous. Both sides have ways of shutting down discourse which is dangerous.
Let me remind you that I started (many posts ago) by saying there are reasonable people on the conservative "side" who are just as alarmed about the way things are heading. We need to work together with those people and to hear their views. This is even when we disagree. Perhaps it is even more important to have discourse when we disagree.
Racism does seem to be increasing. It is increasing because of the fear of "The Other". The only way to deal with this fear is to face it.
