People think they know so much ... when we don't ... compared to the eternal condition ... a thing feared ...
TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?
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People think they know so much ... when we don't ... compared to the eternal condition ... a thing feared ...
Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
Maybe Trump might have a good idea or two and I've said as much (like when I said there is a violent faction of "Alt-left" - although without claiming the Alt-right had equal grievances, as Trump implied - only that the violent agitators on the left, even if only a relatively small number, are not helping the situation). I agreed with Trump offering support to Charlie Guard and his family. Turns out he didn't really politicize it for the healthcare debate. Maybe it was sincere.
But he ran on a platform of walling off and rounding up Mexicans and banning Muslims, he propogated a conspiracy against a black president which just helped bolster the racism, the likes of the KKK down south (disgusting hate memes came out about President Obama) who now feel like they've been given permission to come out loud and proud. This is terrifying people of colour, understandably. He has the explicit support of David Duke. No matter what smoke screen he tries to create, what illusion, what excuse - he's a racist. And he's a misogynist. On those two things - he is too destructive to the social fabric of America for me to give his views much of a chance. Yes, I believe everything he does is through a racist or sexist lens unless there's something in it for him personally to seem otherwise.
But he ran on a platform of walling off and rounding up Mexicans and banning Muslims, he propogated a conspiracy against a black president which just helped bolster the racism, the likes of the KKK down south (disgusting hate memes came out about President Obama) who now feel like they've been given permission to come out loud and proud. This is terrifying people of colour, understandably. He has the explicit support of David Duke. No matter what smoke screen he tries to create, what illusion, what excuse - he's a racist. And he's a misogynist. On those two things - he is too destructive to the social fabric of America for me to give his views much of a chance. Yes, I believe everything he does is through a racist or sexist lens unless there's something in it for him personally to seem otherwise.
Northwind
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Yup. You've made your views perfectly clear.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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And if he's not really in charge, which often seems to be the case, where is the racism and sexism? Isn't Trump a symptom, rather than the disease?
He still gets the attention and adoration of his followers - his supporters. He knows it. He's their dear leader no matter what. They listen to him directly - in tweets and unhinged rallies - and it doesn't matter what is going on within the WH - with the functionality of gov't. He'd have them believe that a paralyzed and ineffective government is good - it's a blow to the establishment, and measure of his success - not a fault of his leadership. And the racism and sexism is with a large cohort of them. The alt-right. He's fueled it and given it permission to thrive.
No. I think he's the disease. He's archetypical of the worst things about America - and he's been promoting his "greatness" and manipulating the media every chance he gets, for decades - with a desire to become president. The people following him and supporting are infected. Although, that's a chicken and egg debate. Doesn't really matter which came first. It's just virulent.
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BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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If someone exhibits some signs of racism or sexism, are they totally a bad person? I think we have to take, with some seriousness, the fact that enough Americans voted for him that he is the POTUS. What do these supporters need from society that they aren't getting? Why aren't we having more serious conversations instead of name-calling?
No. Not always. There's a lot of racism that is subconscious and not overt (which still doesn't make it okay) . But if they're going through the streets with torches screaming "blood and soil!", then yes.
What they are not getting is their sense of entitlement and superiority since the civil rights and women's rights movements - and have decided that is the source of their problems and they must "take their power/ their heritage/ their country back". Equality to them, feels like inequality, because it's a loss of privelege entitlement they enjoyed for a long time. A black president only confirmed this for them. Now they're lashing back at that loss of power - but I don't think anybody owes them anything.
BetteTheRed
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'totally a bad person'
Where's evolution here? Where's the potential for change? Where's how to fix what is wrong with American society that a small segment of young white men are thinking like this? You can't just ban s**t you don't like, Kimmio. You have to figure out what underlies it, and come up with strategies.
Where's evolution here? Where's the potential for change? Where's how to fix what is wrong with American society that a small segment of young white men are thinking like this? You can't just ban s**t you don't like, Kimmio. You have to figure out what underlies it, and come up with strategies.
It's not a "small segment" - it's the segment that helped Trump win the election while nobody noticed they were polluting the Internet with racist and sexist propoganda, that mainly young men were consuming and spreading, and helping confirm how older generations of racists in the south already felt. It is also the GOP for letting it happen - anything to win. And it's been brewing - they helped create it too, for years. It's people like Trump's Jewish and black cabinet members providing cover for this to happen rather than speaking out earlier. It's those who will stand by their guy no matter what. And last but not least - it's Russia spreading white nationalism to divide and conquer Europe and weaken the U.S.
The potential for change lies in education, in cultural sensitivity, in accepting responsibility for the horrors and oppression, of history. Where's that anywhere to be seen in this government? Where is there any modicum of ethics and a moral compass? Maybe in 3 1/2 to 8 years if there's no civil war going on by then.
The potential for change lies in education, in cultural sensitivity, in accepting responsibility for the horrors and oppression, of history. Where's that anywhere to be seen in this government? Where is there any modicum of ethics and a moral compass? Maybe in 3 1/2 to 8 years if there's no civil war going on by then.
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There's no talk about any of that. Now the talk is around the right to spread hate speech. Which leads to violent clashes. How are these more rational discussions ever to take place with that competing interest?
And yes, in a civil society we can ban s**t we don't like if that's necessary to prevent violence and harm. If people lack common sense not to instigate or promote harm to those more vulnerable - then banning s**t sometimes has to happen. Right now - the alt-right wants open season to participate in racist and sexist bulling and power tripping people who still don't have equality. I can't see how that's a good thing.
Yeah, and safe places so people are bubble wrapped.
I personally do not want to live in such a nanny state. I also do not want a world where there is more reason to call those of us on the left "snowflakes"
So capitulate to racists and misogynists, then...why...so they like you?
And just let the hate speech fly and the civil wars break out. And let the men be men and the women and minorities be property - like the good old days? (That's what the alt-right essentially advocates but they don't call it bigotry, they call it natural order).
The "safe spaces" thing was a derogatory term made up by bullies to deride people for feeling the need to be safe from them. Particularly on the Internet, was were it started - but it was a reaction to anti-racism/ equality policies on college campuses. I remember my class - in SSW - taught by veteran social workers, being designated a "safe space" we all agreed on - where the ethics of SW practice were respected and bigotry not tolerated. I would think you'd understand that, so I really don't get your pov. It doesn't make sense. You've changed.
Snowflakes, was a derogatory term made up by the same people who would deride others with social justice views and values who get upset with bigotry and abuse. Fk what they think. I'm proud to be a snowflake advocating for safe spaces where hate speech, sexism, racism, misogyny and ableism is not welcome.
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chansen
Had a point all along
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So, where you see things from Trump's perspective is on the few things where you agree with him.
That's not looking at things from the perspective of the other person. That's just recognizing that the Venn diagram does indeed overlap a little and congratulating them for getting something right for a change.
You are incapable of looking at contentious ideas from the perspective of the other side. You can't see it. You won't try.
There are a lot of scared people in America. They'll pretend they are strong and free, but they are scared and weak. They are losing good paying jobs. They don't understand why. They don't understand economics or climate or immigration. They understand that owning guns makes them feel safe. They are suspicious of other cultures and other religions. Trump appealed to them. If Democrats don't look at things from their perspective, they will continue to lose. If the idea is to try to silence Trump and his supporters, that will backfire spectacularly. That's what Trump wants, because then it's a proven conspiracy.
The way you defeat ignorance and hatred is to let it speak and embarrass itself. Instead of locking it away, shine a light on it. Why do you think I love it when some people with the most outlandish religious beliefs and conspiracy theories post here? They do my work for me.
But mostly, until you figure out how to see things from the perspective of the person opposing you, the more you'll ruin your own side. Which is what I think you're doing again. I wish you were a Trump supporter, because then you'd be sabotaging that side.
Northwind
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That is false logic. You are taking a huge leap with this one. Black and white thinking/arguing does not help your case or argument. There are far better ways to stand up to racism and misogyny. It is very possible to use critical thinking and to stand up to oppression without bubble wrap.
@chansen says it best:
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Social workers are supposed to advocate for a world that is a "safe space" that pays particular attention to social justice for the disadvantaged. @Northwind
So I am curious as to why you equate that with a nanny state bubble wrapped world (I don't - I call it working for a just, peaceful world) and are concerned about being called a snowflake by bullies for representing and promoting SW principles.
CASW Code of Ethics | Canadian Association of Social Workers
So I am curious as to why you equate that with a nanny state bubble wrapped world (I don't - I call it working for a just, peaceful world) and are concerned about being called a snowflake by bullies for representing and promoting SW principles.
CASW Code of Ethics | Canadian Association of Social Workers
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Who understand's Trump's perspective. How is it even possible?... he's so impulsive and walks back everything he says. Even his closest allies can think they get him, and get back stabbed. The closest would be to try to understand narcissism. But that doesn't score him any points.
And I'm convinced some people here have made it a sport to oppose me - instead of finding common ground. Last week I was being told I support the alt right (which should be denounced and I fully agree they should be denounced) by saying there's a violent faction on the far left. Today I'm being told I have to be more understanding of racists. If I say the sky is blue - people will argue it's pink. If I say it's pink - people will argue it's blue. Before even looking out the window. And - there will never be common ground with you. You have something to do with making that a "sport" and part of WC2 culture. You enjoy demeaning me and a few others. I think you're a troll.