TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

[revsdd]

The problem is not Trump.

Trump is "a" problem, but not "the problem.

The problem is the moral collapse of the United States. It is an empire in the oldest and ugliest sense of that word. And it cannot maintain an empire, not matter how many people it kills.

No argument to that.

The churches could be useful here if they were to put our world into the context of Jesus' teaching. But there's not chance of that.

Agree with the idea of what would be useful. Disagree that there's no chance of it happening.

(I don't see what Canadian planes bombing Iraq and Libya have to do with with the teaching of Jesus.

Nor do I.

I don't see what the whole idea of capitalism has to do with the teaching of Jesus. Did Jesus say somewhere there is a blessing in competing to make more money than others?

Trying to fit Jesus into modern ideological ideas is a fool's game, since ideology in the modern sense didn't exist in Jesus' day. Having said that, I'd agree that capitalism is a tough fit with the gospel. But so is socialism (the idea of government enforced "equality.") Christians should, I believe, strive to do the most good for the most people while hurting the fewest. That's a tough balancing act.

When Muslims kill Christians, we are quick enough to pray for the dead. Do we pray for the Muslims we have killed in the millions? Or for the ones we are now deliberately starving to death?

Many churches do, yes.

The churches, evangelicals in particular, have become obsessed with getting into heaven.

Some (perhaps many) have. Mainline churches tend to be more concerned with how to apply the gospel to day to day life.

We can murder, starve whole countries, dreadfully abuse peoples as, for example, Canada's mining companies do - and it's okay. So long as you say you believe, you're in. We abuse much of the world. We do much too little for our own society. We accept the dominance of the very wealthy whose Christian endeavor begins and ends with building churches named after themselves.

This certainly describes some.

There are very few Christians today who run any risk of being crucified.

Since we have no capital punishment in Canada, that's not a realistic risk. We are being marginalized - which I would argue is the appropriate place for the church to be - with those on the margins.

 

[Luce NDs]

As said earlier about Dietrich Bonheoffer ... he resisted having Hitler as the head of the church ... some traditions put their head in the way of monarchs and despots (Madam Guillotine in the Franc basket case) ... others in the head of the church ... still others in the business head ... and what of the avarice factor?

Isn't that the devil when this trinity try's to control the market places of demos? Bazaar ... cross for the trade routes ... and mad Ness erupts .. a dark cloud with a silver lining? You know that this too will pas as a mortal construct ... thus mortal mob explosions if the numbers are not maintained ...

Losing count of the population can lead to disruptive populations ... yup demos (eM) blasted concern of some ... not others!

 

[Jaebius]

We accept the dominance of the very wealthy whose Christian endeavor begins and ends with building churches named after themselves.

Church Names in the U.S. « OpenBible.info Blog

 

[Jaebius]

...Mainline churches tend to be more concerned with how to apply the gospel to day to day life.

Same with every single evangelical church of which I've been a part and of which I've heard about from my evangelical friends. Is it important to we evangelicals that we and others spend eternity with Jesus? Absolutely. That said, what tends to get emphasized in my experience is that eternity begins now not some day after death.

 

[Luce NDs]

What does one call a mortal mob without adequate broad-based intelligence ... do we loose the creative edge in such descent?

Is that col lapse of the cycle of easy Keel? One should learn of the depth of the sea of myths ... a shadow Buddha ... buddy or just a sprout of intellect ... hated by great passions ... could be a mental plant ... if you believe in open sol and free psyches to entangle with core virtues ...

If the western world entered into a learning empiric with the eastern and middle eastern expression ... would we better appreciate our dark Hamitic beings and see what we're becoming ... vicious, hostile unspeakable's? This myth may go on and on ... but greatly oppressed ... by those not knowing alternate egos or different! One track or monadic ... in the end it is suggested it all comes together ... in life a brief icon of how it goes in the black cloud ... with that Lucky Ole Sun ... a Black Hole? Some say this is an occult hymn ... nigh grueling for those not understanding ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Church Names in the U.S. « OpenBible.info Blog

Eddy faces?

 

[Luce NDs]

Same with every single evangelical church of which I've been a part and of which I've heard about from my evangelical friends. Is it important to we evangelicals that we and others spend eternity with Jesus? Absolutely. That said, what tends to get emphasized in my experience is that eternity begins now not some day after death.

The bath of delight without a chance of understanding? Life's like that ... let us move on ... troubling to the conservative republicans wishing to support empires ...

Let us go for the great fall ... and learn to take flight ... gliders in the dark?

Get a grasp of the shadow of mind in a sense that emotional authorities ... believe that's abstract ... err imaginary? No ankh ... no stretch ... little give to eM!

 

[revsdd]

Same with every single evangelical church of which I've been a part and of which I've heard about from my evangelical friends. Is it important to we evangelicals that we and others spend eternity with Jesus? Absolutely. That said, what tends to get emphasized in my experience is that eternity begins now not some day after death.

Note that I didn't say "most." I said "some (perhaps many) ..."

Undoubtedly some evangelical churches emphasize heaven. Some mainline churches do as well. The "perhaps" is my way of saying I don't know if many evangelical churches emphasize heaven. That's not my context - so how would I know? I do know that many (and perhaps most) mainline churches emphasize putting the gospel into practice in daily life. It's possible the same could be said for evangelical churches. Again - I don't know the context well enough.

 

[Luce NDs]

Do they know that heaven is a state of mind ... that open imaginary thing ... escaped from an Ord-IHC och-man? You may say Germaine ...

 

[Graeme Decarie]

jae = I I was thinking of one, local family which behaves in a quite unChristian way, but has not trouble hiring the best preachers money can buy.

revsdd - I quite agree with most of what you say. But I am most uncomfortable at the thought that 2 millennia after Christ, the Christian world is one of the most murderous and brutally exploitive in history. I do think the church has to consider the meaning of that.
I'm not clear on why government enforced equality is a bad idea. That's what medicare is. That's what public education is. People will never be equal in all things. (My chances of winning a beauty are few.) But they can all have a basic equality of opportunity and basic living standards. (and both medicare and public education owe a good deal to Christian inspiration.)

No, we don't have capital punishment. But cases of Christian churches annoying the government are few. (One thinks of the Berrigans in the U.S.) I once knew a leading clergyman and officer of the United Church. (though I was more interested in his daughter than in him.) His work required him to move among the wealthy - and I soon learned that he (and his daughter) fully shared the world view of the wealthy. Some years later, I would meet the daughter again - and she railed against one of the members of our YPU. He operated a quite successful store, raised a family in a large, stone house in the swankiest part of town.
And he and his wife were active in the church.
None of this was enough for minister's daughter who thought that real men should make lots and lots of money. So "He had no gumption."
(And that certainly put me in my place, too.)

 

[Jaebius]

jae = I I was thinking of one, local family which behaves in a quite unChristian way, but has not trouble hiring the best preachers money can buy.

I know of one wealthy family who, if I understand the history correctly, built their own church here in Toronto and made themselves its pastors. That's one family. Adding the local family close to you makes it two wealthy families in North America. That's hardly the majority of wealthy folks. The family that I know of here in Toronto didn't name their church after themselves though.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

We have one down here. I can see naming a church after an outstanding Christian. I have trouble naming it after a wealthy man who put the money into it as a matter of family ego, and who never lived anything that could be called a Christian life.

 

[revsdd]

jae = I I was thinking of one, local family which behaves in a quite unChristian way, but has not trouble hiring the best preachers money can buy.

revsdd - I quite agree with most of what you say. But I am most uncomfortable at the thought that 2 millennia after Christ, the Christian world is one of the most murderous and brutally exploitive in history. I do think the church has to consider the meaning of that.
I'm not clear on why government enforced equality is a bad idea. That's what medicare is. That's what public education is. People will never be equal in all things. (My chances of winning a beauty are few.) But they can all have a basic equality of opportunity and basic living standards. (and both medicare and public education owe a good deal to Christian inspiration.)

No, we don't have capital punishment. But cases of Christian churches annoying the government are few. (One thinks of the Berrigans in the U.S.) I once knew a leading clergyman and officer of the United Church. (though I was more interested in his daughter than in him.) His work required him to move among the wealthy - and I soon learned that he (and his daughter) fully shared the world view of the wealthy. Some years later, I would meet the daughter again - and she railed against one of the members of our YPU. He operated a quite successful store, raised a family in a large, stone house in the swankiest part of town.
And he and his wife were active in the church.
None of this was enough for minister's daughter who thought that real men should make lots and lots of money. So "He had no gumption."
(And that certainly put me in my place, too.)

I didn't say that government enforced equality is a bad thing. I said that Jesus wouldn't have had any concept of an ideology that would support such a thing, and therefore the ideology itself is problematic. Christian giving should be freely given. Having said that, on the principle of the most good for the most people while harming the fewest, I think "government enforced equality" (such as medicare and public education) are the best options for Christians to support.

 

[revjohn]

He may well be deposed by Robert Mueller as part of his investigation. Mueller, as I understand it, has the authority to require that. The Republicans couldn't block that and it would be under oath.

Time will tell.

If I'm right about Trump being a "pathological liar" (again - that's a psychological condition and not a character flaw) then he could very easily testify under oath and tell all sorts of lies while totally believing that he's telling the truth.

I don't think Trump believing himself to speak the truth is actually Trump's issue. Trump's issue appears to be not thinking answers through or having any kind of strategy beyond cheating creditors and bullying tradespersons. Cut off from any kind of support (say more knowledgeable staff) he says what he thinks and what he thinks might play to frustrated and desperate blue collars. It doesn't play for the Judicial branch and depending on the bombs it drops it may not play for Republicans concerned about keeping their seats.

Again, taking the travel restrictions to the Supreme Court after defeats at lower levels. Defeats he suffered because of campaign rhetoric which lead sober, reflective, judicial minds to believe that his travel ban unfairly targetted adherents of a specific religion. The new strategy is to avoid the term travel ban and White House Staffers were diligent about doing that. Then Trump tweets the game away. How will that play at the Supreme Court? As unconstitutionally as it has the lower court? Also remains to be seen. Though a reversal of lower court cases would come from left field.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

A good piece by Neil Macdonald:

Trump nation has carried the notion of a 'deep state' into its fever swamp of paranoia: Opinion

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

There are very few Christians today who run any risk of being crucified.

I have been on the receiving end of state violence on more than one occasion. This following my patient and persistent denunciation of established structures of religion and politics. This photo is indicative of my consistent posture specific to the abuse of power by which peoples and places are exploited and oppressed. The man behind me is the head of Harper's security detail. The others represent federal, provincial and civic authority. Had I made one error of judgement the situation could have turned hard against me. It has happened before.

Phillip Berrigan declared that "Hope is where your ass is." By this he made it clear that where we position ourselves physically indicates where we are coming from spiritually. For the vast majority in a failing Christendom the mall, the sports arena and the theatre are the preferred option. Working hard not to stand out. A profound disconnect between believe and practice. The failure of integrity.

Jesus stood apart from and in contrast to the religious and political structures dominating his day. He called others to join him in this creative resistance. He made clear his own trajectory and also the trajectory of those who decided and determined to count the cost and take up the cross; the risk of religious and political opposition and repression. Not something you hear many preachers inviting their hearers to think about and choose.

It has been easy for the institutional church to dismiss me as something of an oddball. Much easier than paying attention to the insights and actions I express and encourage wherever I am.

George

 

[Graeme Decarie]

Much of our law is based on Christian principles. And that is tricky. I can see the point to not forcing Christian principles on everybody. But one would hope that after 2000 years our society would be more shaped by Christian principle than it is.

 

[GeoFee]

Post Script:

Folk represented by this video get me and welcome my perspective on Jesus. The institutional church seems more comfortable with ignoring my presence and practice.

George

 

[GeoFee]

Addendum:

 

[GeoFee]

But one would hope that after 2000 years our society would be more shaped by Christian principle than it is.

Christianity has for its history repressed the presence of the Holy Spirit. The living presence of God is eclipsed by artifacts inspired by God but mistaken as necessary to the knowledge of God. So Christianity has from its origins in Nicaea been devoted to the forms of God's revelation and distanced from the substance of God's revelation. This serves temple and political economies well. Even a glance through western history will show the corrosive influence of the Christian institution by any of its multiple descriptors.

Perhaps you have heard of Canadian scholar George Grant? He notices the fruitful relationship of Calvinism and Capitalism. With careful critical concern, and aware of his limits, Grant makes an important aspect of our shared experience available for consideration. What he articulates nicely elaborates Herman Melville's notice of Calvinism and Capitalism, in their union comprising a hybrid social phenomenon leading to fatal outcomes. Ahab goes down under the sign of hubris.

Melville was pretty much ignored by diverse romantic voices expressing in prose and poetry America as the new Eden.

History indicates that those who see what is happening are rarely appreciated by those who fail or refuse to see. God says to the prophets, go and tell the people what is coming. They will not listen to you. Go and tell them anyway.

Tell them what? There is an alternative. This would be to take Jesus seriously and Christianity very critically. I do not mean judgmental saying critical. I mean careful and determined inquiry ready to put aside the superfluous and the extraneous and to appropriate the necessary and the good.

A million persons vacating the economy of conspicuous consumption would provoke a massive economic collapse. The narratives of Exodus provide instructive metaphors in this regard. Pharaoh first says go ahead and leave. Then he notices the consequence. This leads to the mounting of military initiative intended to bring the liberated host back into its captivity. We know how the story goes.

Jesus calls us out of the world's ideologies and determinations. Not as escape into some mystical landscape to be discovered post mortem. Into a multi-faceted organism expressing creative resistance in service to the achievement of justice, without which there can be no peace. A people making manifest an alternative imagination of human meaning and purpose.

"Each gathered as able and none had too little or too much." This is possible but its is not profitable. Those preferring profit to persons will resist any advocacy for persons over profits. The more effective the resistance the stronger the resistance.

George

p.s. By now I hope your realize I am not at all interested in discussing the responsibility or irresponsibility of politicians. My concern is with the responsibility of citizens. In a society of consumers this is not always an easy concern to express in the public square.​