Toward 2035

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Mrs.Anteater said:
I think people attend congregations because of the community. Believes are just the background to give an overall condition of “ being in or being out”. That’s what they have in common with pickle ball groups. The believe system should tell the members to look away from themselves and to others in need- which would make them different from a pickle ball group, but from my experience, that often doesn’t happen beyond their own members.
When I came to Canada 28 years ago, I got all exited about the UCC. A church that got together instead of splitting up over BS details, their stance to LTBTQ….until I experienced an actual congregation. It was clearly good ideas on top, but the base was not keeping up. Another problem is the general structure of lack of democracy in the base. Most people want the minister to run the show, sometimes it’s little groups of well- known people, but there is no structure that advances ideas of the newcomer or outsider.
When I left my congregation, the “ outreach committee” still understood their role as making Christmas hampers to give to “the poor”. Any reflection I wanted to initiate to think about relationship with “ those poor” and one’s own dependency on feeling good to be good met with severe resistance. Besides that, the minister felt personally offended when I critiqued the wording for “ the Poor” in the newsletter. He was very much a “ my way or the highway” personality and I assume everyone who doesn't like that has left the congregation by now and his followers are the one’s that need a strongman.
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That is so well put ...

It makes me reflect on the thing about pan sexuality ... a flat out relationship according to some strong leaders rule?

In semitic tongues the fire rule (ru awe) if you don't agree you are touched under the sun by a staking out process ... nailed down? Happens on the beach to nowhere ... when souls entangle ... on the strand as stranded? Minus solutions ...

And one has to ask; are there weaker, more gentle moves as the wayward moves on the item of contention ... being humans house a lot of resentment ... translation to hate? Thus the despised "out-there"! That is the beyond state ... yet to come as in "anon" as a word ... reach for it ... dis emanating sense ...
 
Agreeing with @Mrs.Anteater that people attend congregations because of the community. At my most cynical I feel like church congregations are largely social clubs.

I think our denomination wants us to become more like service clubs than social clubs. We keep hearing church needs to change but I am not altogether clear what we are to change into.

Still haven't read the document in its entirety though.
 
paradox3 said:
At my most cynical I feel like church congregations are largely social clubs.
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Some might argue that's an inevitable consequence of church becoming less liturgical and ritualistic. High Mass naturally imbues the service with a strong sense of otherness, taking us out of the regular social world. Or so those would argue. Mythologist Joseph Campbell was actually a traditionalist RC who opposed Vatican II because he felt the Latin mass was important in this way.
 
@Mendalla
There are Roman Catholics who will tell you to this day that they still miss the Latin Mass. It can continue to be held but there are rules about it. I read that Pope Francis loosened up the regulations a little bit.

United Church worship was much more liturgical in my childhood than it is now. I worry that we may have tossed out too many traditional elements in our desire to be relevant and inclusive.
 
paradox3 said:
Agreeing with @Mrs.Anteater that people attend congregations because of the community. At my most cynical I feel like church congregations are largely social clubs.

I think our denomination wants us to become more like service clubs than social clubs. We keep hearing church needs to change but I am not altogether clear what we are to change into.

Still haven't read the document in its entirety though.
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Service clubs seem to be struggling lately too…heavily weighted with the gray-haired folk. Everything I belong too at the moment runs the risk of becoming obsolete soon as the members age. Churches are service-oriented as well as social….nothing wrong with those elements. But there has to be the deep spirituality that sets churches apart. It gives me a bit of hope to think ahead to 2035.
 
I can see one possible factor for the service clubs. While Muslims, a growing percentage of our younger population, are devoted to service, much of that happens through their mosques and Muslim organizations. My son and his wife are more likely to be working through a Muslim group than, say, the Optimists.

And then there's the whole Gen Z problem. They aren't that involved in any spaces, religious or secular. My son and his wife are activists but that comes from their Muslim faith to a great degree so I don't think they are typical and they are more likely to be involved through Muslim channels than secular ones. The overall sense I have of Gen Z is that they are generally less involved in these sorts of things.
 
Most congregations are a mix of people seeking religious social clubs, people seeking spiritual depth, and people seeking spiritually based mission or opportunities to make a difference in the world. The relationship between the first group and the other two groups shapes how much it is a social club or a church.
 
jimkenney12 said:
Most congregations are a mix of people seeking religious social clubs, people seeking spiritual depth, and people seeking spiritually based mission or opportunities to make a difference in the world. The relationship between the first group and the other two groups shapes how much it is a social club or a church.
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Really interesting perception of the three groups. Yeah, I can see it.
 
paradox3 said:
United Church worship was much more liturgical in my childhood than it is now. I worry that we may have tossed out too many traditional elements in our desire to be relevant and inclusive.
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I disagree. I find the common elements of our weekly service very comforting: Welcome & announcements, territorial acknowlegement/christ candle, first hymn/greet neighbour, opening prayer, anthem by choir, children's story, hymn, scripture, hymn sermon quiet reflection, offering, prayers of the people, benediction and response.

Our service is all projected to screens at the front to make it easier to follow, And it's livestreamed.

I grew up in a hugely liturgical tradition, missouri synod lutheran. Smells and bells, altar boys (I might have been the first altar girl.

I find ministers have unique talents. Our long serving minister emeritus had huge artistic and pastoral talents, Our current long term minister excels at ecumenical social justice and liturgy.
 
BetteTheRed said:
I disagree. I find the common elements of our weekly service very comforting: Welcome & announcements, territorial acknowlegement/christ candle, first hymn/greet neighbour, opening prayer, anthem by choir, children's story, hymn, scripture, hymn sermon quiet reflection, offering, prayers of the people, benediction and response.
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Our service is very similar. It certainly doesn't lack structure. But the present day liturgy has eliminated many of the elements church services included in the past.

For example. We no longer have a prayer of confession/ assurance of pardon or responsive reading of the Psalms. The communion liturgy has been updated and there have been changes made to the music over the years.

Many church members welcome the shifting liturgy. Others lament some of the losses.
 
We are a self declared "progressive" congregation with a contemporary liturgy. But our demographic skews older with only a few younger families. Some of the Sunday school kids come with grandparents. And the numbers are fairly small.
 
I include most of the elements of traditional liturgy but in a more Methodist order, finishing with the message, closing hymn, commissioning, and blessing. Sometimes we finish with a sung closing like Go now in peace. When the psalm fits my message, I will use it responsively. One of my basic rules is that the readings that are used must enhance the service. Many Psalms include difficult parts that fit bible studies better than worship. I resist using readings that offer issues or big questions that I do not plan to address in my message. Sometimes I use the Hebrew scripture reading as a responsive reading.
 
The problem becomes how do you make a contemporary liturgy that might capture the imagination of "the kids" (which now means Gen Z and Gen Alpha mostly since Gen X and the Millennials are all growed up and are the parents of those generations) while still fulfilling that need to somehow create a spiritual space. UU services have sometimes turned into "lecture and discussion with singing" which is little different from a lot of secular groups and offers little by way of spirituality. Perhaps a meditation. During my time, the ministers and worship leaders actually did move to something more like a Protestant liturgy and the humanist crowd whined about it being "too spiritual" but that's what a lot of us were seeking from a church.

How do you deliver that to the 21st century kids? What would define a "Spiritual" service and space for them? That's the challenge the church faces today. And I would argue nobody here or in UCCan leadership is actually prepared to face that unless they are sitting down with kids that age and having a very deep, serious conversation with them. We Boomers, Gen X'ers, and Millennials have no real sense of what Gen Z and Gen Alpha actually need from a church. Because I don't think it's what we wanted and needed from a church. And, no, I don't have the answer either. That's why I say we need to be having the conversation, not throwing slogans around.
 
Mendalla said:
The problem becomes how do you make a contemporary liturgy that might capture the imagination of "the kids" (which now means Gen Z and Gen Alpha mostly since Gen X and the Millennials are all growed up and are the parents of those generations) while still fulfilling that need to somehow create a spiritual space. UU services have sometimes turned into "lecture and discussion with singing" which is little different from a lot of secular groups and offers little by way of spirituality. Perhaps a meditation. During my time, the ministers and worship leaders actually did move to something more like a Protestant liturgy and the humanist crowd whined about it being "too spiritual" but that's what a lot of us were seeking from a church.

How do you deliver that to the 21st century kids? What would define a "Spiritual" service and space for them? That's the challenge the church faces today. And I would argue nobody here or in UCCan leadership is actually prepared to face that unless they are sitting down with kids that age and having a very deep, serious conversation with them. We Boomers, Gen X'ers, and Millennials have no real sense of what Gen Z and Gen Alpha actually need from a church. Because I don't think it's what we wanted and needed from a church. And, no, I don't have the answer either. That's why I say we need to be having the conversation, not throwing slogans around.
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Probably a good time to get a group together to go to other churches to see what kind of services bring the younger adults in.....just for ideas, not necessarily changing what you stand for but a different outlook.
 
"Visions and Dreams" presentation from Youth Forum at GC45, Calgary, Alberta, August 2025.

Personal testimonies and direct challenges, urged the church to:
  • Examine how it relates to and welcomes youth and young adults.
  • Move beyond tokenism ("Are we just tokens to you? Where is the youth inclusion?").
  • Confront fears of decline that often sideline younger generations ("We [youth] have to deal with your fear about decline").
  • Embrace openness to change, believe in new possibilities, and take youth leadership seriously.
 
So they had a youth forum. Fantastic. The question is, does this wonderful plan from the church address what they heard there? Is this dialogue or, as one of your points suggests, "tokenism" trying to make it look like dialogue? That's a key consideration if this "Towards 2035" is to have any real impact.
 
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