Toward 2035

[GordW]

Cancelling WC cancelled access to people who were searching for a place where it was safe to ask questions and discuss non traditional viewpoints. For quite some time it was considered the BEST discussion group run by any Christian based denomination.

Head honchos got cold feet maybe?

WC was planned as a 3 year thing. It ran for at least twice that. There was a lot wrong with the planning and launch of Emerging Spirit (the overall program of which WC was a part) and one of those was that it appeared nobody considered they were creating a community that might want to exist for longer than 3 years. Another was, as you noted that the launch happened and then there were training events for congregations

 

[paradox3]

You know, I wasn't anticipating that this thread would encourage us to revisit the Emerging Spirit thing.

But our history might explain why some of us have that "here we go again" feeling.

 

[chansen]

I didn't need to ask. It's obvious that we're all thinking "here we go again".

 

[Carolla]

Much of the info in the Toward 2035 plan has been fermenting for a while. If interested in truly understanding what it's about, reading thoughtfully through the Facilitator Guide (included in Gord's link) info is helpful.

The UCCan has been actively (albeit perhaps quietly) supporting some different forms of 'community of faith' initiatives/experiments over the past couple of years. As Michael Blair and others often remind us, the tools of the past, while right & effective for those times, will not serve us into imaging the future. Future church will emerge as something quite different. Sadly, many United Churches lack creative, courageous imagination and it is a huge challenge to move people out of risk avoidant stances and into a willingness to experiment. I think that is what Toward 2035 is largely about.

 

[KayTheCurler]

The UCCan in my town is providing an "Everyone is Welcome" lunch once a month. My partner doesn't want to go - so I stay home too.

 

[paradox3]

Maybe some of those congregations considered by @Carolla to lack creative, courageous imagination are experiencing a process of grief? There are many losses for some of our people who lean more traditional in their faith.

It's sad to see those historic buildings disappear. I feel it myself and I don't even worship in one of them.

 

[paradox3]

The UCCan in my town is providing an "Everyone is Welcome" lunch once a month. My partner doesn't want to go - so I stay home too.

We had a community corn roast in the summer which was a smashing success. We also have a couple of movie nights every year and invite the kids from the school beside us.

No one has walked through our doors on Sunday morning as a result of these things but they do stir up positive energy.

The house right next to our building had a yard sale one Sunday in the spring. Some of us popped in and it was actually kind of fun to meet our next door neighbors. Sadly they were holding the yard sale because they were moving.

 

[unsafe]

Jesus being the Head of His Church----THE PEOPLE ---will never die ---change or dwindle out ----Folks ----The Church under Christ will keep on a flourishing ---till the Rapture happens and Jesus takes His Saints home -----

But the Church who heads themselves without Jesus being the head can change and re change and revamp all they want to and they will eventually dwindle and will phase out ---

To many Moral issues in mainstream churches ----with no repentance -----and not Godly--Holy Spirit Ministering ----


What this is saying here ----this is happening in our world today ----in most mainstream churches ----- in my view -----

1 Timothy 4:1-2
​

Apostasy​

4 But the [Holy] Spirit explicitly and unmistakably declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, paying attention instead to deceitful and seductive spirits and doctrines of demons,

2 [misled] by the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared as with a branding iron [leaving them incapable of ethical functioning

I say
The Mainstream Churches are choosing a different Path and hearing a different voice ------and they are doomed to fail ------nothing they do will save them ------

They are under this Curse which stands today ------Deuteronomy 28 ---everything you put your hands to will fail

AI
In Deuteronomy 28, the "curse of the hands" refers to God bringing confusion, rebuke, and failure in all endeavors where you "set your hand to do," meaning everything you attempt will falter, leading to destruction and ruin because of disobedience and forsaking God

Good Luck with their trying to survive -----

 

[paradox3]

Didn't Gamaliel say that if something new is of God it will survive?

Or something similar?

The tricky part might be discerning if the new something is actually "of God".

 

[unsafe]

Didn't Gamaliel say that if something new is of God it will survive?

This is what Gamaliel says in Acts 5

AI



Acts 5:38-39
features Gamaliel's wise counsel to the Jewish council, advising them to release the apostles,
stating that if their movement is human-made, it will fail,
but if it's from God, trying to stop them would mean fighting against God.

This passage highlights the principle of letting God's work unfold, recognizing that human efforts to halt divine plans are futile and potentially dangerous, a concept known as the Gamaliel Principle.

The Passage (NIV):
"So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God".

 

[Luce NDs]

Imagine the institutionalized in the edifice getting out more ... tis like flying over a nut house! The birds 4 've them as the front winds ... Gods?

Fell for it A? rather cosmological once stirred ... extensive ... not something a mortal can pack-in ... like that fathjer took to the party ... and the father took away? Marie Ann regrets --- more Burl Ives!

In NS they have a blow me down place ... some say Blomidon ... spot in NS to observe tide ... there they come and go with time ...

Radio Shacks were built on a peak in NFLD ... for radios spread ... ova da sea that was broad ...

Harbor Lights evolved as a nice tune ... from a sounding board?

 

[paradox3]

Been thinking about this thread and the future of the church. If church will look different in the future, what do we think it will be? Do we know yet?

We know that online and hybrid worship has become a thing. People can worship anywhere across the country now from the comfort of home.

Is this the way of the future? The study materials seem to be lamenting the growth of destination churches. It seems clear to me that community hubs and local connections represent the desired future.

We had a consultation with EDGE a few years ago that was definitely pushing in this direction.

Here in Scarborough we have had at least two congregations get into providing housing and subsequently close.

We had a regional church initiative at one point which fell apart. Talk of amalgamations and actual amalgamations too.

Will try to peruse the study materials more thoroughly in the next few days.

 

[Luce NDs]

Some chap once said that everything goes by in time ... thus changing perspectives ... justifying John Spong on Changing Christianity ... but why me Lord,: I'm too thick?

 

[Mendalla]

The study materials seem to be lamenting the growth of destination churches.

What's a "destination church"? I think I kind of get it but not sure. It's a new term for me. I would think destination churches are the ones that attract people for whatever reason, becoming the "church you have to go to". Could apply to evangelical mega-churches but also a popular liberal congregation like Hillhurst. But that's my interpretation of the term. How does the material use it?

It seems clear to me that community hubs and local connections represent the desired future.

I can see this, too. Not sure how you get there when so many are still looking at a traditional definition of "church".

 

[paradox3]

A destination church is one that attracts people who do not necessarily live in the immediate area. Could be for theological reasons but there are probably other explanations:

A spectacular music experience?
A popular minister?
A downtown historic building?
A specific outreach ministry?

 

[Mendalla]

A destination church is one that attracts people who do not necessarily live in the immediate area. Could be for theological reasons but there are probably other explanations:

A spectacular music experience?
A popular minister?
A downtown historic building?
A specific outreach ministry?

Okay, that's kind of what I was thinking. Zoom or other livestream services will definitely exacerbate that phenomenon, esp. when "popular minister" and theological reasons are in play. Think of people here who talk about "attending" other churches via livestreams and such (Hillhurst is one I know that's been discussed).

 

[Luce NDs]

Then the internet collapses as a bubble and the people forget the older relating processes.

Sort of like the religious fear of TV way back when ... and electronic impressions were further corrupted ...

People even forget how to write the righteous to correct them with cynical behaviour ... as with past philosophers ... their feet were often held to the diabolical fires of human avarice ... dark activities like great drug conflicts ...

Many overlook as they can't envision the problem ... drugs are profitable ... ethical? Maybe not ... but can power raise doubt through distractions?

 

[jimkenney12]

I attended a 2035 workshop last fall. It has a few problems for me. The focus seems to be on how, not why. It is a top down approach trying to be a bottom up approach.

It seems to ignore the reality that many congregations are primarily concerned about themselves. Just as many people are choosing not to have children, revealing a lack of interest in leaving a legacy, many congregations have too many members who have little interest in working for a church that will exist after they die.

We have three churches in our cooperative that seem to be doing better than the others. The French congregation has leaders interested in growth, and they are growing slowly.

Another congregation sold their building to focus on ministry.

The third congregation has a big breakfast after it's 9:00 service, and has added two young men to its community who do not eat breakfast but visit. The doctor even took a confirmation course and formally joined, partly for the community and conversations.

For 2035 to work, congregations need members who deeply care about people who are not part of the community.

 

[Luce NDs]

I attended a 2035 workshop last fall. It has a few problems for me. The focus seems to be on how, not why. It is a top down approach trying to be a bottom up approach.

It seems to ignore the reality that many congregations are primarily concerned about themselves. Just as many people are choosing not to have children, revealing a lack of interest in leaving a legacy, many congregations have too many members who have little interest in working for a church that will exist after they die.

We have three churches in our cooperative that seem to be doing better than the others. The French congregation has leaders interested in growth, and they are growing slowly.

Another congregation sold their building to focus on ministry.

The third congregation has a big breakfast after it's 9:00 service, and has added two young men to its community who do not eat breakfast but visit. The doctor even took a confirmation course and formally joined, partly for the community and conversations.

For 2035 to work, congregations need members who deeply care about people who are not part of the community.

The lack of a sense, feeling for community and connection thro' a chord is disheartening ... dissonant? There are other words that carry the prognosis of another genesis ... and sometimes the feeling, intuitive? that we've been here before ... an afforest? A' fore-ism ... front man? Ka Li jah ... col elusive ... collusion?

Bump in the night ...

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

I think people attend congregations because of the community. Believes are just the background to give an overall condition of “ being in or being out”. That’s what they have in common with pickle ball groups. The believe system should tell the members to look away from themselves and to others in need- which would make them different from a pickle ball group, but from my experience, that often doesn’t happen beyond their own members.
When I came to Canada 28 years ago, I got all exited about the UCC. A church that got together instead of splitting up over BS details, their stance to LTBTQ….until I experienced an actual congregation. It was clearly good ideas on top, but the base was not keeping up. Another problem is the general structure of lack of democracy in the base. Most people want the minister to run the show, sometimes it’s little groups of well- known people, but there is no structure that advances ideas of the newcomer or outsider.
When I left my congregation, the “ outreach committee” still understood their role as making Christmas hampers to give to “the poor”. Any reflection I wanted to initiate to think about relationship with “ those poor” and one’s own dependency on feeling good to be good met with severe resistance. Besides that, the minister felt personally offended when I critiqued the wording for “ the Poor” in the newsletter. He was very much a “ my way or the highway” personality and I assume everyone who doesn't like that has left the congregation by now and his followers are the one’s that need a strongman.