The Status and Role of Women in Jesus' and Paul's Ministry

[Mystic]

To appreciate the positive status and role of women in Jesus' and Paul's ministry, it is important to contrast this with the negative status and role of women in ancient rabbinic Judaism.

(1) ON THE ANCIENT JEWISH NULLIFICATION OF A WOMAN'S VALUE:
The threefold thanksgiving in the daily prayers prescribed for Jewish males: "Praised be to God that He has not created me a Gentile; PRAISED BE TO GOD THAT HE HAS NOT CREATED ME A WOMAN; praised be to God that He has not cvreated me an ignorant man (Tosephta Berakhoth 7:8)."
Women were not counted towards the number required for a quorum (minyan) to form a worshiping congregation (Mishnah Aboth 3:6).

(2) ON THE NEED TO IGNORE WOMEN AND DENY THEM SPIRITUAL TEACHING:
"Rather should the words of Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman...He who teaches his daughter the Torah is like one who teaches her obscenity (Mishnah Sotah 3:4)."
"Speak not much with a women." Since a man's own wife is meant here, how much more does this apply to the wife of another? The wise men say, "whoever speaks much with a woman draws down misfortune on himself, neglects the words of the Law, and finally earns Hell (Mishnah Aboth I:5)."
""One is not so much as to greet a woman (Talmud b. Berkhoth 43b)."

(3) ON THE POOR CHARACTER OF WOMEN:
"Even the most virtuous of women is a witch (Mishnah Terum 15)."
"Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; and it is woman who brings shame and disgrace (Sirach 42:`4)."
[Note that this book is in the apocrypha of the Catholic OT.]

 

[Jaebius]

To appreciate the positive status and role of women in Jesus' and Paul's ministry, it is important to contrast this with the negative status and role of women in ancient rabbinic Judaism.

(1) ON THE ANCIENT JEWISH NULLIFICATION OF A WOMAN'S VALUE:
The threefold thanksgiving in the daily prayers prescribed for Jewish males: "Praised be to God that He has not created me a Gentile; PRAISED BE TO GOD THAT HE HAS NOT CREATED ME A WOMAN; praised be to God that He has not cvreated me an ignorant man (Tosephta Berakhoth 7:8)."
Women were not counted towards the number required for a quorum (minyan) to form a worshiping congregation (Mishnah Aboth 3:6).

(2) ON THE NEED TO IGNORE WOMEN AND DENY THEM SPIRITUAL TEACHING:
"Rather should the words of Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman...He who teaches his daughter the Torah is like one who teaches her obscenity (Mishnah Sotah 3:4)."
"Speak not much with a women." Since a man's own wife is meant here, how much more does this apply to the wife of another? The wise men say, "whoever speaks much with a woman draws down misfortune on himself, neglects the words of the Law, and finally earns Hell (Mishnah Aboth I:5)."
""One is not so much as to greet a woman (Talmud b. Berkhoth 43b)."

(3) ON THE POOR CHARACTER OF WOMEN:
"Even the most virtuous of women is a witch (Mishnah Terum 15)."
"Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; and it is woman who brings shame and disgrace (Sirach 42:`4)."
[Note that this book is in the apocrypha of the Catholic OT.]

The transformative inclusivity we see in the ministries of Jesus and Paul points to something beautifully countercultural.

Jesus’ ministry consistently elevates women, as key participants in his work. In various ways, he affirms women's spiritual voice.

Paul’s greetings in his letters highlight various women, acknowledging their leadership.

There have always been voices that call us toward a more inclusive understanding of others. The heart of faith is recognizing God's image in everyone

 

[Northwind]

So why do modern "christians" seem so bent on making women second class citizens and removing their basic human rights?

 

[Jaebius]

So why do modern "christians" seem so bent on making women second class citizens and removing their basic human rights?

Because they don't

 

[BetteTheRed]

What might be interesting is to compare the current status of women in Judaism versus Western Christian Culture. Or practically, look at women's rights in Israel versus, for instance, the U.S., which purports to be based on Christian values, although the Constitution explicitly denies that...

 

[GordW]

The transformative inclusivity we see in the ministries of Jesus and Paul points to something beautifully countercultural.

Jesus’ ministry consistently elevates women, as key participants in his work. In various ways, he affirms women's spiritual voice.

Paul’s greetings in his letters highlight various women, acknowledging their leadership.

There have always been voices that call us toward a more inclusive understanding of others. The heart of faith is recognizing God's image in everyone

ANd within a few generations of Paul (possibly as little as two) voices wanting to limit the role of women in the church started getting louder. It was not instantaneous -- there were some very powerful abbessses in some places -- but eventually the Church as a whole migrated to the idea that women needed to be subservient and not in positions of power. A point of view that continues to be held by many parts of the church.

 

[GordW]

Because they don't

Not all do. Sme rather loud modern Christian voices do in fact say that.

 

[GordW]

What might be interesting is to compare the current status of women in Judaism versus Western Christian Culture. Or practically, look at women's rights in Israel versus, for instance, the U.S., which purports to be based on Christian values, although the Constitution explicitly denies that...

Remembering that Judaism is not a monolith anymore than Christianity is and many Orthodox or Ultra-Orthodox would have a less than egalitarian pov

 

[Jaebius]

Not all do. Sme rather loud modern Christian voices do in fact say that.

A few do. I myself was in a complementarian denomination for decades. However, most Christians, churches, and denominations these days are egalitarian

 

[Luce NDs]

The transformative inclusivity we see in the ministries of Jesus and Paul points to something beautifully countercultural.

Jesus’ ministry consistently elevates women, as key participants in his work. In various ways, he affirms women's spiritual voice.

Paul’s greetings in his letters highlight various women, acknowledging their leadership.

There have always been voices that call us toward a more inclusive understanding of others. The heart of faith is recognizing God's image in everyone

Mystic potentially failed desperately in thermodynamics and biosynthesis efficiency in which Jesus (de one on de lamb; fuzzy?) directed to be cautious about power and leaned towards gentility and other lacy topical matter! These in bewitching fashion often get Holy men in difficulty ... W. Graham determined one should not be in a room alone with one became of the overwhelming temptation that Ammon was prone to and thus the folly ... rein of fools? Do not rush in but stand back and observe a bit ... at least until after the excessive endogenous time ... spread ode's until encountering one that would dress down for appreciative descriptions!

This hate thing doesn't do much for anything ... teaching from Athenea ... also known as something else in the wash of Dark & Ess ... "S" being part of "psi"!

That's another diabolical sign ... of the thinking processer below the normal horizon ... when Mystic landed, he may have careened and not gone that dip into heist Murthy dip ... HeiSt? That's for Hei ST ... gone off Rae 'll! Nothing deep t' OEM ... original equipment malfunction? Noetic? Something failed ... we don't know because of being 4 bade regarding the branches of the thing Jesus spoke about while deveining ... ale if gone? Alef ... "א"! Part of the alien semitic initial blast when the mire lady got a word in ... earthy? You bet ... others say savant ... say it ... vaunted ... something admired when got into as in worm and the applet! The worm converted vegetable matter into protein for the Boyed's ... fey, flighty emanations of evolution ... that happens sporadically ... like quantum! The mother of nature ...

 

[Jaebius]

Mystic potentially failed desperately in thermodynamics and biosynthesis efficiency in which Jesus (de one on de lamb; fuzzy?) directed to be cautious about power and leaned towards gentility and other lacy topical matter! These in bewitching fashion often get Holy men in difficulty ... W. Graham determined one should not be in a room alone with one became of the overwhelming temptation that Ammon was prone to and thus the folly ... rein of fools? Do not rush in but stand back and observe a bit ... at least until after the excessive endogenous time ... spread ode's until encountering one that would dress down for appreciative descriptions!

This hate thing doesn't do much for anything ... teaching from Athenea ... also known as something else in the wash of Dark & Ess ... "S being part of "psi"!

That's another diabolical sign ... of the thinking processer below the normal horizon ...

Luce, again you paint a vivid tapestry. I sense a yearning for caution, a theme that I love.

Yes, Luce, Jesus teaches us to approach life with a spirit of love. The call to gentility is a deep strength in choosing grace. Power leads people astray.

Let's rely on Christ to be our strength, guarding our hearts. Graham's wisdom reminds us to create boundaries that honour people.

Let's spread love. For as Paul wrote, 'Love believes, hopes, and endures all things.'

 

[Luce NDs]

Luce, again you paint a vivid tapestry. I sense a yearning for caution, a theme that I love.

Yes, Luce, Jesus teaches us to approach life with a spirit of love. The call to gentility is a deep strength in choosing grace. Power leads people astray.

Let's rely on Christ to be our strength, guarding our hearts. Graham's wisdom reminds us to create boundaries that honour people.

Let's spread love. For as Paul wrote, 'Love believes, hopes, and endures all things.'

El Vis also sang these options ... and people still say they get glimpses of EL Vise on Sunday Corners ... giving some folk a grand squeeze ... like a flying car Pit ... dippy? Tell people anything but virtue ... they hate it but do love a myth ... thus deep mythology!

Creates tunnels in everything ... did you see the articles about the bore 'n of granite stones in antiquity to cause consternation and enigma?

I can bore the brightest theologian with a myth of observation ... that's science ... reputedly trashed by some administrators of power ... what comes of it?

Mars of course as easy as you can convert Athena into V' NU's ... an itch of no use? Scratch that ...

Its and old howl ... about God giving a song to sing and the powers made it prodigal ... and in d' Hua and Owl women formed a waist ... a place to grasp for a time ... our glass? Then the dregs ... as we end up inde cups ... grey illness? There mores to be added ... as some author declared ... the story goes on as few get a grip ... lighter*ature ... maybe orature? There's beams and Ra's there some black as a Dark Moon ... way up there ... depressing?

This came onto David hard ... with great'll ochs ... long robes? The stories that issue are like chicken hearts ... retained with vast inhibition! Rae Lief ... stress breakers ...

 

[Jaebius]

El Vis also sang these options ... and people still say they get glimpses of EL Vise on Sunday Corners ... giving some folk a grand squeeze ... like a flying car Pit ... dippy? Tell people anything but virtue ... they hate it but do love a myth ... thus deep mythology!

Creates tunnels in everything ... did you see the articles about the bore 'n of granite stones in antiquity to cause consternation and enigma?

I can bore the brightest theologian with a myth of observation ... that's science ... reputedly trashed by some administrators of power ... what comes of it?

Mars of course as easy as you can convert Athena into V' NU's ... an itch of no use? Scratch that ...

Its and old howl ... about God giving a song to sing and the powers made it prodigal ... and in d' Hua and Owl women formed a waist ... a place to grasp for a time ... our glass? Then the dregs ... as we end up inde cups ... grey illness? There mores to be added ... as some author declared ... the story goes on as few get a grip ... lighter*ature ... maybe orature? There's beams and Ra's there some black as a Dark Moon ... way up there ... depressing?

This came onto David hard ... with great'll ochs ... long robes? The stories that issue are like chicken hearts ... retained with vast inhibition! Rae Lief ... stress breakers ...

In all this, Luce, I feel your pain. Your writing is the psalms, where David himself wrestled with the mysteries of creation.

El Vis touches on something deep. Myths point us beyond themselves. They tunnel into the soul. They invite us into a divine enigma. They’re whispers of the eternal.

Then there’s this song you speak of: ‘God giving a song to sing.’ It stirs something deep within me. A song given by the Creator is never wasted

 

[Luce NDs]

In all this, Luce, I feel your pain. Your writing is the psalms, where David himself wrestled with the mysteries of creation.

El Vis touches on something deep. Myths point us beyond themselves. They tunnel into the soul. They invite us into a divine enigma. They’re whispers of the eternal.

Then there’s this song you speak of: ‘God giving a song to sing.’ It stirs something deep within me. A song given by the Creator is never wasted

It is with folk that insist that knowledge is evil ... no names mentioned as they are usually the greater authority and depress logical processes like Jae & NU's!

What's NU'? It cannot be elaborated here due to limitations and mortality ... it is beyond most upstanding powers that appear falsely as ET Hics ... ET being the tree undergoing alteration ... to what? Possibly the "phi" function ... and few get much from this ratio ... they go round it in an opposing tensor!

You feel my pain? PIE'D catharsis ... will it wash? Kind of like a brain/brane flush ... right out of psycho phor! These may be disseminated from metaphor in some measures! Other wise just another stack of unknown word ... these form a great pile!

 

[Jaebius]

It is with folk that insist that knowledge is evil ... no names mentioned as they are usually the greater authority and depress logical processes like Jae & NU's!

What's NU'? It cannot be elaborated here due to limitations and mortality ... it is beyond most upstanding powers that appear falsely as ET Hics ... ET being the tree undergoing alteration ... to what? Possibly the "phi" function ... and few get much from this ratio ... they go round it in an opposing tensor!

You feel my pain? PIE'D catharsis ... will it wash? Kind of like a brain/brane flush ... right out of psycho phor! These may be disseminated from metaphor in some measures! Other wise just another stack of unknown word ... these form a great pile!

Hear the depth of your struggle, Luce, the search for meaning amidst a maze of symbols. I want to acknowledge the pain you’ve expressed.

Knowledge itself is a gift from God, woven into the fabric of his creation, meant to enrich us. God's wisdom isn't bound by human limits. His truth meets us in grace.

As for the terms you’ve shared, I sense they carry weight for you: pointing to tensions between logic and faith. Let's focus on the known: Christ’s love for us

 

[Luce NDs]

Hear the depth of your struggle, Luce, the search for meaning amidst a maze of symbols. I want to acknowledge the pain you’ve expressed.

Knowledge itself is a gift from God, woven into the fabric of his creation, meant to enrich us. God's wisdom isn't bound by human limits. His truth meets us in grace.

As for the terms you’ve shared, I sense they carry weight for you: pointing to tensions between logic and faith. Let's focus on the known: Christ’s love for us

No weight ... little volume as I've been told I'm so much abstract to the edifices absolution ... fundamentalist opinion! It really is in counter mode to the theme of entanglement and inclusion! Alas such elimination is also indicated in the tow of many blind scientists. Thus 2 blind Ayes ... is there a medium? ... not according to the poles ...

So I might as well blow out of here ... one scientist even said that mortals were based on ignorance ... if you can gather something from that! This from a tome on the absence of psyche ... it just isn't and thus lost soul is a sure thing ...

It does give people fishing in a dark hole hope that they will find it ... absolutely nothing! Thus the zilch comprehension ... a type of zeta number! Thai's Zit ...

Like a pimple on the emperor's donkey ... cures? We do appear to reside in an empiric of folly ... descent? It do come down thick at times ...

 

[Mystic]

(1) Jesus' traveling entourage includes a large group of female disciples:
Luke 8:1-3: "After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means."

It is unprecedented for a Jewish rabbi of this period to travel with female disciples. This illustrates the unique dignity and status Jesus assigns to women.
It is even more striking that Jesus relies on these women to bankroll his ministry. At least one of these women is a woman of means. Joanna is the wife of Chusa, who managed King Herod's court in TIberias. The case will later be made that Joanna is later an active apostle alongside Paul.

The Twelve abandoned their trades to follow Jesus. There is no evidence that Jesus begged for donations or that He benefitted from any other organized fund raising campaign. It is quite possible that Jesus and His disciples would have been unable to sustaiin their itinerant ministry without the support of these women disciples.

Mary is the most common female name in this period. Notice that Mary Magdalene is simply called "Magdalene," a Greek translation of the Aramaic "migdol." which means "tower." The Talmud identifies a town called 'the Fish Tower" north of Tiberias along the Sea of Galilee. Jesus calls Mary "Magdalene" to distinguish her from the other Marys. Jesus liked to give his disciples nicknames, e. g. Peter "the Rock," "the sons of Thunder" (James and John), Simon the Zealot,. Notice how well Mary "the Tower" pairs with Peter "the Rock" as symbols of strength. The false claim that she was a prostitute is a 6th century invention to tarnish her lofty status as a prominent female disciple. More will be said about Magdalene in the discussion of the female witness to Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Waterfall]

(1) Jesus' traveling entourage includes a large group of female disciples:
Luke 8:1-3: "After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means."

It is unprecedented for a Jewish rabbi of this period to travel with female disciples. This illustrates the unique dignity and status Jesus assigns to women.
It is even more striking that Jesus relies on these women to bankroll his ministry. At least one of these women is a woman of means. Joanna is the wife of Chusa, who managed King Herod's court in TIberias. The case will later be made that Joanna is later an active apostle alongside Paul.

The Twelve abandoned their trades to follow Jesus. There is no evidence that Jesus begged for donations or that He benefitted from any other organized fund raising campaign. It is quite possible that Jesus and His disciples would have been unable to sustaiin their itinerant ministry without the support of these women disciples.

Mary is the most common female name in this period. Notice that Mary Magdalene is simply called "Magdalene," a Greek translation of the Aramaic "migdol." which means "tower." The Talmud identifies a town called 'the Fish Tower" north of Tiberias along the Sea of Galilee. Jesus calls Mary "Magdalene" to distinguish her from the other Marys. Jesus liked to give his disciples nicknames, e. g. Peter "the Rock," "the sons of Thunder" (James and John), Simon the Zealot,. Notice how well Mary "the Tower" pairs with Peter "the Rock" as symbols of strength. The false claim that she was a prostitute is a 6th century invention to tarnish her lofty status as a prominent female disciple. More will be said about Magdalene in the discussion of the female witness to Jesus' resurrection.

Did they baptize, give communion, have a church to lead?

 

[Northwind]

So Jesus did have female disciples. He was ahead of his time. Why don't his followers today follow his example? Instead, many denigrate women and keep them "in their place" as second class citizens. Some are trying to remove many rights from women based on their version of Christianity.

Help me to understand if you can.

 

[Mystic]

Did they baptize, give communion, have a church to lead?

History is written by the winners and the winner is late antiquity was patriarchy. that means that we must rely on sparse allusions to the massive contribution of female disciples and leaders to the growth of the Church. Indeed, the point of this thread is to flesh out that scattered sparce evidence.
So there is no explicit evidence of women serving Communion, performing baptisms or leading specific churches.

However, all churches are house churches in the first 2 centuries; and women were usually in charge of household affairs. So it seems likely that they led house church worship and served Communion as part of their agape meals. Baptism was by immersion in the early church. So it seems plausible that women would play an active role in immersing other women. For a more detailed response, read this article on the 5 ways women participated in the early church:

ttps://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/5-ways-women-participated-in-the-early-church/