The Rev. Vosper Again

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paradox3 said:
This is an interesting link. Financial resources were indeed handed over to Cruxifusion from the earlier renewal movements but the article states that no strings were attached to the money.
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I think RevNP said there were no strings last year. It's just that every time you go looking for anti-gay ordination or anti-same sex marriage in the United Church, you find links to Cruxifusion.
 
paradox3 said:
No, but the Vosper situation is much more complex than a "random faith check".

The church exercises its responsibility for oversight of clergy in a variety of situations. Even Bob Ripley (asked by London Conference to voluntarily DSL for his avowed atheism) has stated that the church has a "right and duty" to do so.
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They have that right. I just think they're stupid to use it. They were stupid to start the process. Canadians aren't believing. Let's go after the non-believers!

The church could try to reconcile facts and trends with how they do things. They could try some form of accommodation. But they won't entertain it, because believers are threatened by non-belief. More good could be done with people like Gretta and those who admire her with you. But it's that sticky point about believing in a literal God that keeps tripping people up. You can't show a thing, but dammit, if they don't believe, they don't belong.
 
paradox3 said:
You are a very patient man, RevJohn!
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Let's use the older term, long-suffering. It plays to virtue better. ;)

paradox3 said:
We have been over and over some of these issues so many times. The oversight of clergy in our denomination. The letter from Met. The review process itself. . . .
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Well, yes we have. Those things matter less than the feels though. And depending on the outcome of the review it will explode into angrier feels.

paradox3 said:
Much the same thing is happening over on FB right now. I think everyone is curious about the reasons for this recent delay.
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I don't really blame them. If I had known this was back before the Judicial Committee I would have wondered less. They tend to be motivated more by doing things properly rather than quickly. And they do have their hands full with other stuff just because of the Comprehensive Review.

I do empathize with the Reverend Vosper to some degree. It would be hard to spend so much time in the spotlight knowing that your standing as a minister is on the proverbial chopping block. I expect that once the office of vocation comes into being discipline will be much, much swifter.

Not that it will help.

The delay is just one source of frustration. The result will be another.
 
BetteTheRed said:
the point has been made that the beliefs that one might have at ordination and the beliefs one might have 20 years down the road are bound to be different.
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That point has been made and for the most part it is hoped that this is the case. The preamble to the doctrinal section commends all members of the Church, not just the clergy to ongoing engagement with the doctrines of the Church so that they can be routinely articulated in fresh new ways.

Which presupposes that there is a trajectory to belief. I doubt that there are any who could make a case that unbelief is part of the flight plan. We start with something and we build on that.

BetteTheRed said:
We're not doing random faith checks on clergy.
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Well, not formally we aren't. At least not yet.

Every sermon could be seen as theologically peeing into a cup and waiting for lab results.
 
chansen said:
The church could try to reconcile facts and trends with how they do things. They could try some form of accommodation. But they won't entertain it, because believers are threatened by non-belief. More good could be done with people like Gretta and those who admire her with you. But it's that sticky point about believing in a literal God that keeps tripping people up. You can't show a thing, but dammit, if they don't believe, they don't belong.
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There are a variety of theologies in this United Church of ours. Some literal. Some not so literal. Please quit insisting that literal God is the problem here.

As a person of faith, I can tell you that non-belief does not "threaten" me a bit. It would be just as silly to suggest that we Christians "threaten" your atheism. Different worldview. That's all.
 
chansen said:
I think RevNP said there were no strings last year. It's just that every time you go looking for anti-gay ordination or anti-same sex marriage in the United Church, you find links to Cruxifusion.
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In that case, I guess anyone coming across these links needs to look a little deeper and exercise some judgement.
 
They are still links. I think Cruxifusion should have run from the CoC and kept going. Instead, they got money and the endorsement of the CoC.
 
revjohn said:
I do empathize with the Reverend Vosper to some degree. It would be hard to spend so much time in the spotlight knowing that your standing as a minister is on the proverbial chopping block. I expect that once the office of vocation comes into being discipline will be much, much swifter.
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Hard to say what impact the office of vocation will have. It will change things up for sure. I was a member of a regulated health profession for the last 20 years of my career. Prior to that we were non-regulated. It is a different world.

Yes, I empathize with Gretta, too. Uncertainty is a very difficult thing to live with. I am sure this whole process is difficult for her congregation as well. Ditto for the former members who are watching the proceedings with various degrees of interest.
 
paradox3 said:
There are a variety of theologies in this United Church of ours. Some literal. Some not so literal. Please quit insisting that literal God is the problem here.
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You will tell me that a literal God is not the problem, but you won't be able to explain how a metaphorical God suffices. You will not take a position on this.

paradox3 said:
As a person of faith, I can tell you that non-belief does not "threaten" me a bit. It would be just as silly to suggest that we Christians "threaten" your atheism. Different worldview. That's all.
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Metropolitan United clearly felt that they wanted the church's backing in denying atheists.

You guys are based around an untenable belief and there is a fear of that belief being shaken, because you've seen it in your congregations, and in your families and friends. The entire country is losing its religion. The UCCan is closing churches at a rapid pace. You're losing members at a rate that will effectively put your denomination out of business inside of a generation. Maybe some holdouts will last longer? But you won't do a damn thing differently. And you're determined to pick a fight against an atheist in the pulpit, like you need a civil war under these circumstances.

It will make the angry people happy. For a while. The people in other denominations who are mocking you for having an atheist in the pulpit, won't stop. They'll find something else. You're still the least literal denomination in Canada. They've got plenty of ammunition on you.

It's difficult for me to understand that you guys would rather close every door than try something that doesn't involve God. I thought you were more about people. If you're a fan club first, then how are you different from any other church?
 
chansen said:
I'm shocked that no one is bringing it up at all.
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There are a lot of corrupted and corruptible things in the UCC, as in all churches, that one cannot bring up of speak of ... as if the thoughts and questions don't exist ... I just don't know ... even been told that I know nothing about theology as a non ministerial type! But doing in depth engineering work that many of the engineers I worked with, wouldn't or couldn't do, and yet told me I was non-professional ... used to strike me as odd as professing Christians that aren't very professional about the complexity thereof.

The VP of the company I worked for said he trusted me with in depth problems than many of his professionals ... but I got laid off due to failures in the professional system. It is perhaps of how professionalism is laid out ... no depths to draw any deeper light from as a lamþ usefull as illumination deep into the metaphors that some say don't exist ... like a God of profession nature ...

Tis a queer god that possesses flawed Christians in a dark position ... who cannot relate that Christ is the light, or even enlightening to the cracks in flawed definitions ... yet some light does disperse ... perhaps irregularly ...
 
As a flawed Christian I offered to leave ... but they didn't wish me too for financial cause ... and said reason had nothing to do with it ... or so they didn't think!

Even left me in a chaotic state of mind of why I socialize with these people that believe me to be evil because I read into things they find strange and opaque ... unseen and unknown?

Tis close to occult eh by?
 
chansen said:
Metropolitan United clearly felt that they wanted the church's backing in denying atheists.
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You keep insisting that this is the case.

That is not how the letter from Metropolitan reads.

They were not looking to deny atheists. They weren't even looking for a review of the Reverend Vosper.

They clearly articulate that they wanted the assistance of Toronto Conference in understanding how the Christian faith embraces atheism. So much so that an atheist can function as a minister in a Christian denomination.

Not like others, including atheists, have also pondered the same question.

It seems evident that after engaging in that discussion Toronto Conference Executive had no answer to explain such a phenomenon and here we are.
 
Is not atheism a firm belief to some non-believers in the alternate spirits? That'd be reason and rationale about controlling war-like explosions of emotions! Can they vent more safely by sat attire as laid out in twisted word that appears as Freudian Slip of the edge that can cut like Asclepius ... not double edged like Caduceus ... twice as poisonous?

Tis a Rome Antic in resolution by force ...
 
I find it both interesting and not interesting at the same time that the challenge to WestHill was mounted by Metropolitan. Interesting, because 'they' have most recently, been the beneficiaries of a widened tent, a broader interpretation of traditional theology. Less interesting, because it is actually my experience that LGBTQ people, having remained faithful to the church despite persecution, have a bigger vested interest in orthodoxy, or why would they not have, sensibly, abandoned ship?
 
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And the Comprehensive Review? Which dissolves the historic presbyteries and replaces them with enormous, regional Conferences? Seems an even poorer idea than it did.
 
BetteTheRed said:
And the Comprehensive Review? Which dissolves the historic presbyteries and replaces them with enormous, regional Conferences? Seems an even poorer idea than it did.
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It assists in the failure of the prevention of sinking ... the option ... Bailies and Coffee ... with or w/o the coffee! It is important to be cognizant of a possibility or encountering a mind (sol) blown instant ... in space where you don't know up from down ... some scientists call this abstract dimension!
 
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